I wonder

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dmortvedt
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I wonder

Post by dmortvedt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:17 am

This is just for fun ... mostly... I was reading around on the site and went outside to have a smoke... sitting there looking at the tire of a car... thinking what if???

1. car tires are steel belted... ie a conductor runs around the circumference.
2. they are designed to be turned at high speeds.
3. an initial low pressure inside (ie.flatten the tire) and the walls being flexible and substantially massive would allow for something resembling a vacuum to be achieved by spinning a purged tire at high speed.
4. a Van DeGraaf works off of friction with an insulative material ... rubber is insulative and the tire would be spinning... a VanDeGraaf also produces high voltages.

This is a crude concept and the basic idea is what I am pursuing (momentarily at least) not thinking I can power the next space mission with an old tire and a rusty wheel. But what if...

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Re: I wonder

Post by John Futter » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:29 am

keep thinking
the major ingredient in tyres other than rubber is lamp black --they are conductive --alright semi-conductive.
secondly rotational speeds possible with mechanical means are orders of magnitude behind molecular /atomic speeds -ie they are stationary in this context.

maybe you need to smoke something else for divine inspiration.

dmortvedt
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Re: I wonder

Post by dmortvedt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:34 pm

the main concept here was the idea of a rotating rather than stationary assembly... along with, possibly shape and material (van de graaff?) and the rotational energy increasing the vacuum.

The mass of a flexible membrane flung outward at high rotational velocity should increase the vacuum.

At some threshold of diameter and rotational velocity the outside field should "blur" to the point that it appears perfectly consistent in strength the whole way round.

On a side note has anyone tried pulsing the power to their fusor? at.... say the inverse of the speed of light\\ ID(inside Diam.) of the machine? That way the pulse is applied every fraction of time it takes to traverse the fusor?

I would think this would get everything firing at once and increase the particle density at the core.

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Chris Bradley
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Re: I wonder

Post by Chris Bradley » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:23 pm

This is a blur of words that I cannot follow. It may mean something to you, but it's not achieved its purpose of explaining your idea to me.

Please;

a) provide diagrams for ideas (preferably uploaded as jpgs < 1MB), AND
b) provide some basic maths to show your idea is remotely viable, AND
c) use different threads to raise different matters/ideas.

(PS; AFAIK, a Van de Graaff generator is not a triboelectric device.)

dmortvedt
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Re: I wonder

Post by dmortvedt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:16 am

"Another method for building Van de Graaff generators is to use the triboelectric effect." -Wikipedia

as per other sites as well. Just google Van De Graaff and triboelectric.

As far as my math is concerned...

Ex. |----------------| Diam. = 16 inches

The speed of light is about 12 billion inches per second. --> therefore at the speed of light the particles can make 12 billion \\ 16 trips per second or 750 million trips per second. Therefore one trip takes 1 / 750million seconds or 4/3 * 10^-9 seconds or .000 000 00133 seconds. If one wished to fire his/her particles precisely instead of just trying to mash them all together they might want to fire their high voltage supply when the particles had nearly reached the edge of the container but not quite... say at a frequency 80-85% of the time it takes them to traverse from one side to the other. I like 85% because I just do so .85* .000 000 001 333 =once every .000 000 001 133 seconds... or a frequency of 1/ .000 000 001 133 or about 880 million times per second or about 880 Mhz.


I was curious if anyone had attempted this approach. You are, in essence, attempting to create a standing wave and thus need to time your application of force to the desired velocity and length of chamber and the particles should follow. This is just another of my ideas. I would imagine this would maximize the density of the particles since they are all fired more-or-less simultaneously.

Or you could just fire them once and put the "squeeze" on them hoping that does the trick.

I'm going to post this before my computer crashes again and then I'll expound on my other idea...

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Re: I wonder

Post by dmortvedt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:25 am

Simplified math is ((12billion/16)/85)*100
or c/diam.*100/85(or your desired percent of frequency)
or 100c/percent*diameter

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Re: I wonder

Post by dmortvedt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:53 am

I will follow this with a diagram later...

Imagine... simply as a reference... the tire of ... say a sport bike (crotch rocket)

now imagine the surface that is designed to touch the road is substantially thicker ... this is simply to add more mass at the outside of the tire.

now imagine that there is no sidewall at all to speak of... just a thick flexible membrane mated to the "rim"

now imagine a vacuum pulled on this tire until no more could be pulled

what you would have would be a tire that laid close to flat or "bellied in" some into the rim

now put your bike on a stand and spin that tire up to about 150 mph (it's a z-rated tire)

What has happened to your vacuum... remember it has quite a bit of added mass at the outside edge/contact surface

Has the vacuum increased decreased or stayed the same?

here is a link to an image for reference

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoG ... G_1130.jpg

lets assume this is a 16 inch tire for later just... well just because...

now that we have spun our tire up to 150 mph vacuumed it down and then increased the vacuum some more lets rig us up a Van De Graaff contraption to create some high voltage from friction...

then we wave our magic wand to transform the rim into a flattened/squashed version of the fusor core add a lil' hydrogen gas and shoot it with with high voltage at 880 Mhz.

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Frank Sanns
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Re: I wonder

Post by Frank Sanns » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:20 pm

This thread is going nowhere and does not contain sound scientific principles. David, please search the forum or do reading on your own to better understand what is required for a fusor or a Van de Graff to operate.

This thread is now closed.

Frank Sanns

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