Hot fusion idea

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nio247
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Hot fusion idea

Post by nio247 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:39 pm

Hello. I would first of all say I am rather uneducated on the matter of fusion, but please consider this idea and don't be too picky. At first I suggest you read the "short" version, and if you don't believe it would work, then read the long version.

1)Let's imagine we have a steel Sphere, filled with our favorite hydrogen.

2)The following phenomenon should be possible:
Short version: As a spherical sound wave converges to a diameter comparable to it's wavelength, the peak pressure of the wave would have risen by many orders of magnitude.

Long version: If we are able to produce a perfectly spherical sound wave originating from the surface of the sphere and travelling towards it's center, then we should observe rise in the amplitude of the wave (that is, pressure) as it's radius decreases. We should get something like pressure = k / r^2. The pressure generated by such a wave as it's wavefront closes down in a single point should be many orders of magnitude greater than the pressure that needed to be applied to the surface of the steel sphere in order to create such a wave. The "point" pressure would however be limited by radius to which the wave can, um, condense. I doubt the pressure generated by such a wave could increase after the radius reaches the wavelength. Still, it should be many orders higher as it is.
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Why would this phenomenon work: basically, a perfect geometrical arrangement would mean that the sound wave lets the force of many actuators/solenoids (or whatever was used to create them) exert their force over effectively a microscopic surface, thus creating a huge pressure.

3) Based on your prefered size of the Sphere, and your choice of sound wave generating system (array of solenoids?), which, critically, has to be extremely precise in both timing and construction, you calculate the pressure and temperature (i.e. base average energy for hydrogen inside) so that after the Phenomenon, a "small" group of atoms at the focus (i.e. center) would mostly fuse together out of sheer pressure/temperature generated at that point for a moment.

4) This group of atoms that have fused would release some energy, and the surrounding layer of atoms would absorb it. Adjust the base pressure so that when that happens, the released energy is enough to keep the reaction self-sustaining, due to each layer of hydrogen atoms fusing and releasing the energy to excite the next layer.

5) You should have litterally an explosion of pressure and heat. It can probably be collected through very simple mechanical means.


Bad news:
1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.

2) It's an explosion are you crazy?!

3) Not a continious power output. Quite the opposite.

Good news:
1)Base pressure rise during part 3 can be completely discarded if the sound system is set up right.
I.e. PROBABLY very low initial energy input, compared to other types of fusors.

2) Duration vs. intensity of the power output moment can be also regulated by adjusting base pressure.

3) Doesn't involve strong magnetic fields and high voltages everywhere.

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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Trent » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:37 am

One simple problem.

The ideal gas law, which describes the relationship between density, pressure, and temperature of a gas, and which is also serves as part of the basis of wave propagation calculations in gas, becomes less and less accurate at high pressure.

Essentially: Once molecular attraction comes into play, all bets are off... and you haven't even gotten close to atomic forces yet.

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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Joe Scherrer » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:38 am

This has already been thought of, and it works on a very small scale. Do a literature search and see what comes up.
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2 ... save-world

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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:12 am

>"Nikita wrote:"
You had best post a 'real' introduction to yourself and your intent here, else someone will give you an electronic dressing-down for not reading the sign-on requirements.



Nikita wrote:
> Hello. I would first of all say I am rather uneducated on the matter of fusion, but please consider this idea and don't be too picky.
Why not? What's your point in posting if you don't want to countenance picky-ness? Is this the "Panda"-technique; "eats shoots and leaves". Are you here to learn or discuss something, or are you a one-post-wonder to show us how clever you are even though you admit to being uneducated about fusion?



> 1)Let's imagine we have a steel Sphere, filled with our favorite hydrogen.
> 2)The following phenomenon should be possible:
> Short version: As a spherical sound wave converges to a diameter comparable to it's wavelength, the peak pressure of the wave would have risen by many orders of magnitude.
Disregarding the various annoying details, like you being uneducated about fusion, compressing a fusion fuel has been the only way to date of making net energy from fusion. Unfortunately, the only way so far found of generating that compressive energy is by a fission bomb being detonated around a fusion core, a so-called 'H-bomb'.

The other current attempts are, as mentioned, General Fusion [recent patent rejection]. Also, NIF that uses 180 MJ worth of laser energy from 192 pulsed lasers and promised Congress last year they'd be performing meaningful fusion energy experiments by now, after spending quadrillions [of just about any measurable quantity] on the 'experiment'. One past attempt, called 'sonofusion' aims to create neutron-induced bubbles in a superheated deuterium fluid, and as the bubble collapses, the idea is that fusion occurs therein.



> Bad news:
> 1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.
See failures, to date, of NIF and General Fusion, as above.

> 2) It's an explosion are you crazy?!
See "H-bomb", as above.

> 3) Not a continious power output. Quite the opposite.
See "H-bomb", as above.



> Good news:
> 1)Base pressure rise during part 3 can be completely discarded if the sound system is set up right.
> I.e. PROBABLY very low initial energy input, compared to other types of fusors.
See "fission bomb", as above

Now we've covered your idea in the various forms it has already been attempted, please introduce yourself in the correct forum.

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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by David Geer » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:18 am

Also, the sonofusion has already been proven as a failure in experimentation and Nikita, you need to rename your account to have your full name displayed just like everyone else. It's in the rules and needs to be followed.
- David Geer

Chris Trent
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Trent » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:11 am

I've already done the research, and am aware of the work at General Fusion. They are using pistons to compress plasma.

There are others using magnetic fields to do the same, as well as electrostatic fields, resonance, pinch effects, etc...

All of the above use plasma as the operating medium, not hydrogen gas.

stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi,

>> 1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.

>See failures, to date, of NIF and General Fusion, as above.


I was wondering if you are referring to any specific information as to these failures, esp General Fusion. They appear to have closed some first round funding and to be working on it but I do not think they have published any results. Failures are interesting.

thanks!
Stefan

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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:15 pm

Stefan Kuzminski wrote:
> I was wondering if you are referring to any specific information as to these failures, esp General Fusion.
I was speaking mainly of the failure to get a patent, in this case. In fact, this is the 5th patent in 5 years that has been rejected. No evidence that it will work has been presented to the examiners. The examiners keep rejecting due to lack of enablement, but Mr Laberge keeps sending patent applications in all the same, still with the same 'theories'. Maybe a few neutrons to show, but nothing evidently scalable (yet?).

Failures of NIF?....Plenty of history to read up on there... I am sure it is a success in *someone's* eyes!......

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Carl Willis
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Carl Willis » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:31 pm

>Also, the sonofusion has already been proven as a failure

Sonofusion "proven" a failure? How and when? (I'm NOT inviting a redux of the Taleyarkhan misconduct scandal, but rather interested in seeing something conclusive about the concept itself, which as far as I know remains a studied subject with a mainstream theoretical basis).

Nikita's armchair idea is about as good as anyone else's armchair idea:

Meh.

People just have to get it through their wigs that raw ideas are not in short supply; they're actually a-dime-a-dozen and seldom distinguished on account of sheer abundance. What would be interesting, but is exceedingly rare in our ideas department, is a WELL-DEVELOPED idea--one that deals in specifics, has a communicated underpinning in sound physical theory, and is testable on the amateur laboratory scale.

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stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:44 pm

I agree that probably most everyone on the NIF payroll can point to specific successes..

In the acoustic design ( specifically the General Fusion but also the original post on this thread ), how is the plasma target protected from being quenched by material carrying the shock wave?

thx,
S

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