Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

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djolds1
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Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by djolds1 »

An idea presented by one Pharis Williams at the SPESIF 2009 conference. It depends on an alternate model of physics developed over the last 35 years, so its basis is definitely left field. However, Williams' concept of neutrons being amalgams of protons and electrons reminded me of intuitions previously voiced by fusor-net's Richard Hull, so perhaps there is something here worth chewing over.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Bradley »

I like new ideas..... so, err, are there about 20 slides missing between #13 and #14 as I'm keen to see how the presentation went at that stage?

if deuterium just spontaneously reacts like this, then why doesn't it? And by what means does the energy emerge, if it produces no radiation whatsoever (or am I missing something - is it meant to be 'just' hv, cold-fusion-style?)
djolds1
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by djolds1 »

That's one of the SPESIF documents. Here's the complete theory on a site put together by the guy's daughter. I've only just started chewing through it myself. Basic idea is a 5D spacetime with mass as an additional imaginary dimension (like time).

http://www.physicsandbeyond.com/DynamicTheory.html

It doesn't appear to be "standard" LENR, or Bussard's metal-deuterium fusion conjecture as reported by Tom Ligon.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Bradley »

Not sure I've got time or interest to plough through it personally. I hope someone does and gives a summary. Bottom line is that just sticking deuterium into a bottle doesn't generate fusion, so presumably the guy is trying to actually do something with the deuterium and the theory shows him how to do that, rather than him thinking that simply trying to talk deuterium into fusing by means of persuasive logic and mental powers will cut it? I would've expected the mechanism as part of the presentation. If it had any hint that there is some substance to it, I would read on.

Thanks for the link, though, always of interest to see the pickles people get themselves into over fusion. Maybe he has got the means to create the mechanism he's thinking of, it's just a shame he doesn't want to put it in the presentation.
Quantum
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

Interesting concept that mass is another dimension, though, Chris.
djolds1
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by djolds1 »

There's an 8-page writeup on the website:

http://www.physicsandbeyond.com/pdf/Com ... eactor.pdf

I ran across a moderately reputable endorsement of the quality of his work online, the neutron concept reminded me of Richard Hull's opinion, and Mr. Hull has my respect. There's a podcast interview online if you're interested in something for your ipod during workouts:

http://www.thespaceshow.net/detail.asp?q=1139

and I dropped a line via the website's contact box requesting a brief update on results since SPESIF.
Quantum
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

"One means of holding two deuterium nuclei in such an orientation might be to place them into the crystal lattice of a
metal under a high magnetic field that locks up their spin axis in the correct orientation. The crystal structure should
be such that each deuterium nucleus should have a clear view of a neighboring deuterium nucleus along it spin axis
without another nucleus in the path. Temperature vibrations such as to provide motion of the deuterium nuclei
toward each other will set up the quantum tunneling that will result in the two deuterium nuclei preferentially fusing
into a helium nucleus without any attendant radiation."

This is the conclusion.....Sounds a lot like 'cold fusion' all over again.
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Mike Beauford
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Mike Beauford »

"One means of holding two deuterium nuclei in such an orientation might be to place them into the crystal lattice of a metal under a high magnetic field that locks up their spin axis in the correct orientation."

So, basically he's trying to orientate the spin in the same direction to up the percentage chance of fusion happening.
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Edward Miller »

To make fusion easier you need paradeuterium which is up/up & down/down. Reference the Todd Rider presentation. Magnetic fields are unnecessary to maintain the spin alignment.

One would still need to somehow decrease the intranuclear distance enough for fusion to happen.

Also ionization will generally wipe out spin optimization.
djolds1
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by djolds1 »

This seems to touch on the basics wrt fusion:

http://www.physicsandbeyond.com/CoulombsLaw.html

Apparently Coulomb's Law is reinterpreted, leading different outcomes in some situations. If Coulomb repulsion functions slightly differently than current theory holds, then conditions for fusion in some circumstances would be different.

The article is an easy read, layman accessible.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Bradley »

Still sounds like deuterons are being talked into fusing, rather than acted on in some way!!
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Richard Hull
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Richard Hull »

This does smack of the classic cold fusion mantra D+D=He4 and no radiation. Well if there is no radiation then where's the energy out? IR? RF? UV? I assume there is energy out and they mention low energy reactions. Inquiring minds want to know, but more importantly, inquiring eyes want to see it happen in some sort of wheelwork form.

As always, lots of theories with little to show their efficacy.

I'll stick with my simplistic PE exchange philosophy, composite neutron as a special case proton-electron union found only in and acting as the binder of nuclear atoms.

For right now, I have to accept the classic physics observational fusion methodology as it is fully observed and repeatable. Unfortunately, it forces me to conclude that fusion is stellar mass sized affair for net autorun operation with loads of nasty radiation as a resultant of that operation.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Quantum
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

Richard, Elsewhere he states 'no particle radiation', so, presumably energy out is gamma rays/x-rays/other photons.

Anything involving a crystal lattice sounds like cold fusion.

He does mention an interesting concept about mass being a fifth dimension, though.
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Trent »

Strikes me as cold fusion as well.

However, another interesting implication caught my attention. This paper seems to suggest that deuterium in a metallic state would spontaneously fuse at some rate.

Given that there are several research groups attempting to study the metallic properties of hydrogen, and that many of those are using deuterium in their tests, we should have conclusive proof one way or the other before too long if it doesn't exist already.

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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Edward Miller »

Deuterium in any state will spontaneously fuse. Just not enough to be interesting. Also there will be cosmic muons that catalyze some fusion reactions. I don't think anyone has done fusion with liquid metal deuterium although LLNL had a project that was getting incredibly high densities. https://www.llnl.gov/str/Nellis.html
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Bradley »

Edward Miller wrote:
> Deuterium in any state will spontaneously fuse.

Only philosophically speaking. If the 'rate' of fusion in a bottle of D at room temp is once per 100 trillion years then it is truly a 'theoretical' rate as one single event is unlikely to be seen in the lifetime of the universe, even though a theoretical 'rate' can be described. As you say, cosmic-induced nuclear transformations are far far more likely.
Quantum
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

Has anyone ever considered to what extent muons play a part in fusion in the sun?...

Just a thought.....
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Dan Tibbets »

Without actually having any details on muons in the Sun, I suspect that they are extreamly rare in the core. Cosmic rays would not penitrate so deeply into the Sun, and the Sun's core is at ~ 15,000,000 degrees C. (~1400 electron volts) so the numbers of particals in the thremalized tail that reach ~ 40,000,000 electron volts (what is needed to create a muon (?) ) would be extreamly rare. The freshly created fusion products in the core would briefly have a few million electron volts of kinetic energy but they would very quickly distribute that energy to the very dense background plasma within the core- with it's ~ 1400 eV average temperature. Also, I don't know if the Muon would help with the initial step of P-P fusion, like it is claimed to help the strong force fusions of heavier isotopes.

I supose a muon created near the Solar surface might promote a rare fusion in the low densitiy gasses (plasma) present in that area of the Sun, at least if some deuterium is present.

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Quantum
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

It was just a hought Dan. I assumed cosmic rays were produced at the centre of the sun, presumably as an indirect fusion by-product, due to the huge energy levels present there. I'll have to read up on cosmic rays. Muons could certainly be of relevance to this thread, though, as a possible catalyst, but then that wouldn't make what is being discussed in this thread unique.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Richard Hull »

No one on earth knows the precise methodology by which cosmic rays are produced or more importantly accelerated to the incomprehensible energies that have been observed. (one hundred quintillion electron volts on a few recorded particles...100 exavolts)

Naturally, lots and lots of theories abound from super-nova remenants to billions of field interactions over eons of time cruising through space to active galactic cores.

The average energy of a cosmic ray is on the order of a billion electron volts. As virtually all cosmics are normal matter particles, (nuclei), "ray" is somewhat of a misnomer in the purest sense, but its long term use remains. One is not normally in the habit of calling a speeding nickel or thulium nucleus a ray.

Amazingly there are virtually no high energy gammas seen in cosmic rays compared to the energies of real matter particles intercepted. The bulk of the matter particles are proton and helium nuclei. Muons are not found in cosmic rays, but are created by them crashing into atmospheric nuclei. Natural subatomic spew (muons, pions, etc.) are solely created by cosmics blasting apart atmospheric atoms. Subatomics don't cruise through space....too cold for 'em and they are not wanted in our current day universe.

Miliken argued for years that cosmics were mostly gamma rays until he was forced to accept overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Even the greats can be dead wrong.

Modern day x-ray telescopes have seen x-ray, (gamma ray), energies of a few trillion ev, but as noted, gamma rays of any higher energies than the 2.2mev gamma originating due to solar processes are rare events. Again, our atmosphere forces almost all high energy gammas are cosmic rays to pair produce or by other means of gamma matter interactions to slow down so that mev cosmics at the ground are just not effectively seen. As might be expected a rare ground based cosmic gamma detection is possible.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

Richard, I appreciate that muons are not found in cosmic rays, only created by them, as you say.

You also say that no-one knows the true origin of cosmic rays.

I was merely suggesting that it may be possible that muons 'may' be produced by cosmic rays within the sun.

I'm expecting to be 'proved wrong' on this matter, however, as you say, no-one knows the true origin of cosmic rays. I also suspect it would be difficult to detect muons within the sun. I was merely speculating that muons could possibly play a part in fusion within the sun.

Maybe muons are the 'lucky donkey' required for 'over unity'?.....
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Richard Hull
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Richard Hull »

We have been over muon catalyized fusion to distraction! It is perhaps a close brother to the forlorn hope of P-B11 fusion in these forums.

As earth based muons demand a minimum of 50mev to be produced, or more likely 100mev to be produced readily, any fusion efforts involving them by man would require extreme input energy expenditures.

Finally, there are no indications of any feasibility of this idea as a net power producing system. Certainly, no one here will ever investigate it.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Quantum »

I appreciate that, Richard, but one muon can catalyze tens of thousands of fusion events, so it would be exothermic overall.
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Edward Miller »

Muons can't catalyze thousands of reactions because their lives are so brief they can only get into a hundred or so, and even then they sometimes stick to the molecule instead of catalyzing more and more reactions.

I agree with Richard, there is not currently a practicable path to energy generation via muons. For the most part they're a distraction. I find it fascinating that they show that fusion can be done by just decreasing the intranuclear distance and without the ridiculous temperatures required by ion collision fusion.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Interesting Alternate Fusion Concept

Post by Chris Bradley »

Depends on your definition of 'temperature', I guess.

How fast are those deuterons and tritons spinning around the muon - even though that 'muon atom' itself is at a low temp? As we well-know in IEC, it's nuclear speed that counts, not 'temperature' which is a bulk property and therefore I suggest it doesn't describe beam-target or muon-type fusion
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