After half a year of reading these forums, a question formed in my head ...
Why is everybody here so hostile to magnetic confinement? There are thousands of scientists working on these projects, having deeper knowledge than you and I. All the same many here believe they know much better.
How often does I read in this forum: "Who knows whether it works ... someone should try!"
Well, they try!
Chris
Hostile against magnetic confinement.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Magnetic fields cannot 'confine'. The magnetic force is a cross-product force.
You're on a wing-and-a-prayer by using magnetic fields - the slow particles penetrate that field because force = magnetic field x particle velocity x particle charge. So if it gets a bit too slow, there's no force on it. Plus, that force is 'sideways' to the direction the particle wants to go.
But similarly, the fast particles have a bit too much energy for the 'magnetic barrier' to keep it in.
Only a scalar force can contain - that's one that works in the exact opposite direction to the way the particle wants to go.
You can make a particle spiral around a magnetic 'line of force', but only for so long until it drifts away as that spiral slowly succumbs to issues of thermal agitation (where the particle has a bit more or a bit less energy than those around it) plus the magnetic instabilities that those spiraling particles create for themselves locally.
Unfortunately for tokamaks, it gets even worse than this!! there are a few way to then heat up the plasma, initially you dump a load of current through it like it's a one-turn transformer. But plasma is a negative-resistance medium - the hotter it gets the lower the resistance. So above a few 10s millions K you can't get any more heat into it that way because its resistance has dropped off to nothing. So they then pump in lots of RF and neutral beams, but that ends up heating the outside of the plasma more than the middle bit, so that outside 'edge' (as it is called) gets much hotter but this is the bit you actually need to be as mono-energetic as possible (for a given magnetic field) else the hot/cold particles breach that magnetic barrier. This heating and edge physics is the limiting factor with magnetic confinement methods. It's quasi-stable at best, but collapses after a finite period of time and the plasma reaches the physical walls of the containment vessel and cools instantly.
'Quasi-stable' might be good enough to get some payback (good luck ITER!! I hope us taxpayers can afford the bill) but anything that is this in-elegant is rarely 'right'.
best regards,
Chris MB.
You're on a wing-and-a-prayer by using magnetic fields - the slow particles penetrate that field because force = magnetic field x particle velocity x particle charge. So if it gets a bit too slow, there's no force on it. Plus, that force is 'sideways' to the direction the particle wants to go.
But similarly, the fast particles have a bit too much energy for the 'magnetic barrier' to keep it in.
Only a scalar force can contain - that's one that works in the exact opposite direction to the way the particle wants to go.
You can make a particle spiral around a magnetic 'line of force', but only for so long until it drifts away as that spiral slowly succumbs to issues of thermal agitation (where the particle has a bit more or a bit less energy than those around it) plus the magnetic instabilities that those spiraling particles create for themselves locally.
Unfortunately for tokamaks, it gets even worse than this!! there are a few way to then heat up the plasma, initially you dump a load of current through it like it's a one-turn transformer. But plasma is a negative-resistance medium - the hotter it gets the lower the resistance. So above a few 10s millions K you can't get any more heat into it that way because its resistance has dropped off to nothing. So they then pump in lots of RF and neutral beams, but that ends up heating the outside of the plasma more than the middle bit, so that outside 'edge' (as it is called) gets much hotter but this is the bit you actually need to be as mono-energetic as possible (for a given magnetic field) else the hot/cold particles breach that magnetic barrier. This heating and edge physics is the limiting factor with magnetic confinement methods. It's quasi-stable at best, but collapses after a finite period of time and the plasma reaches the physical walls of the containment vessel and cools instantly.
'Quasi-stable' might be good enough to get some payback (good luck ITER!! I hope us taxpayers can afford the bill) but anything that is this in-elegant is rarely 'right'.
best regards,
Chris MB.
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Carl Willis
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Chris,
How did you come to the conclusion that "everybody here" is hostile to magnetic confinement?
Certainly the most prominent project of that type, ITER, comes under fire regularly for the perception of being a boondoggle. I know this is the expressed view of Th' Perfesser, and Richard Hull has trashed the dim (so far) returns on the tokamak investment. While Richard and Paul have understandable views that are loudly voiced, these views can't be called a consensus of Fusor.net contributors by any means.
My own opinion of ITER is that it's a careful and reasonable investment, based on sound science. It builds on the experience and clear incremental progress of tokamak research, assets not developed right now (rightly or wrongly, that's certainly up for debate) with regard to various alternative fusion schemes. It's quite probable that there are better fusion energy schemes than the tokamak, but it's also true that if you have a multibillion-dollar budget, you don't blow it on something that is too far a departure into the unknown. Will ITER be characterized by wastefulness due to bureaucratic overhead and inertia? Possibly. That remains to be seen. I, for one, hope it succeeds and believe it will.
-Carl
How did you come to the conclusion that "everybody here" is hostile to magnetic confinement?
Certainly the most prominent project of that type, ITER, comes under fire regularly for the perception of being a boondoggle. I know this is the expressed view of Th' Perfesser, and Richard Hull has trashed the dim (so far) returns on the tokamak investment. While Richard and Paul have understandable views that are loudly voiced, these views can't be called a consensus of Fusor.net contributors by any means.
My own opinion of ITER is that it's a careful and reasonable investment, based on sound science. It builds on the experience and clear incremental progress of tokamak research, assets not developed right now (rightly or wrongly, that's certainly up for debate) with regard to various alternative fusion schemes. It's quite probable that there are better fusion energy schemes than the tokamak, but it's also true that if you have a multibillion-dollar budget, you don't blow it on something that is too far a departure into the unknown. Will ITER be characterized by wastefulness due to bureaucratic overhead and inertia? Possibly. That remains to be seen. I, for one, hope it succeeds and believe it will.
-Carl
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Chris, Those comments about whether an idea stands any chance are usually thrown back at the poser..... Try it! ..... Report back on your idea once you have it in hardware! Give us your data! This shuts most of 'em up in short order. Few are doer's and many are posers. Ideas demand exposure, however. We do that here.
I have only seen one guy here who had I more complex idea that I thought not worth th effort who actually has mechanized it and reported back. (Steven Sesselmann)
He had the guts and verve to chase down his dream in hardware and has consistently reported back. He has admitted mistakes and accepted help. While his device still languishes a bit, he has not given up and continues hard at it.
If one is so cock sure that an idea will fly and others doubt it terribly then it is not up to the doubters but the poser to give it the wings of experiment.
Instead, many posers are upset that the doer's won't stop what they are doing and try out their brilliant idea for them.
We poo-poo magnetic confinment only because, as you say there are many fine and brilliant gentlemen afoot struggling with this effort as were their fathers and their, grandfathers. Could we outdo them in this long trod realm? Not a chance! If they can't do it with all the kings treasure, horses and men over 50 years at the effort, then who are we to try and beat them at that game. Let them play at it, I say. We all await the lucky donkey.
Whether the thermal boys win out or the IEC boys or some, as yet un-appreciated form does the fusion trick, any number of entrenched groups will be embarrassed and amazed at whatever wins and first puts fusion energy on the electrical mains. (however far off in the future that is)
EDIT: Carl notes my skepticism below. He is correct. Just because I don't believe in any magnetic scheme doesn't speak for the group. Some think it has a chance. I do believe that we, as a group, don't stand to ever actually do anything magnetic in nature related to confinement aimed at over unity fusion. Certainly no one here has lifted an experimental finger in that direction and told about it.
As this is a a theory specific forum, ideas reign supreme and experiment is often not even contemplated. Magnetic confinement is a great idea, so is electrostatic confinement none have ever broken even to generated the first watt of usable electrical energy.
I once posted a great image in image du jour. It was of a 1952 image where a woman is standing in front of an electrical range cooking with real power from a small steam turbine powered by a nasty looking, ugly, black, land based, submarine test reactor in the background.
It would only be a few short years before Shippingport chugged the first megawatt of fission power out to Pennsylvania residents. But, seeing even a kludge like this proved fission was real, viable and cooking bacon and eggs on mom's stove.
Nothing even close to this has or will be done via any form of fusion for any number of decades, it seems, regardless of confinement or methodology.
Richard Hull
I have only seen one guy here who had I more complex idea that I thought not worth th effort who actually has mechanized it and reported back. (Steven Sesselmann)
He had the guts and verve to chase down his dream in hardware and has consistently reported back. He has admitted mistakes and accepted help. While his device still languishes a bit, he has not given up and continues hard at it.
If one is so cock sure that an idea will fly and others doubt it terribly then it is not up to the doubters but the poser to give it the wings of experiment.
Instead, many posers are upset that the doer's won't stop what they are doing and try out their brilliant idea for them.
We poo-poo magnetic confinment only because, as you say there are many fine and brilliant gentlemen afoot struggling with this effort as were their fathers and their, grandfathers. Could we outdo them in this long trod realm? Not a chance! If they can't do it with all the kings treasure, horses and men over 50 years at the effort, then who are we to try and beat them at that game. Let them play at it, I say. We all await the lucky donkey.
Whether the thermal boys win out or the IEC boys or some, as yet un-appreciated form does the fusion trick, any number of entrenched groups will be embarrassed and amazed at whatever wins and first puts fusion energy on the electrical mains. (however far off in the future that is)
EDIT: Carl notes my skepticism below. He is correct. Just because I don't believe in any magnetic scheme doesn't speak for the group. Some think it has a chance. I do believe that we, as a group, don't stand to ever actually do anything magnetic in nature related to confinement aimed at over unity fusion. Certainly no one here has lifted an experimental finger in that direction and told about it.
As this is a a theory specific forum, ideas reign supreme and experiment is often not even contemplated. Magnetic confinement is a great idea, so is electrostatic confinement none have ever broken even to generated the first watt of usable electrical energy.
I once posted a great image in image du jour. It was of a 1952 image where a woman is standing in front of an electrical range cooking with real power from a small steam turbine powered by a nasty looking, ugly, black, land based, submarine test reactor in the background.
It would only be a few short years before Shippingport chugged the first megawatt of fission power out to Pennsylvania residents. But, seeing even a kludge like this proved fission was real, viable and cooking bacon and eggs on mom's stove.
Nothing even close to this has or will be done via any form of fusion for any number of decades, it seems, regardless of confinement or methodology.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Was that comment directed to Chris D, or me? (Not sure I've made any sort of claims?)
best regards,
Chris MB.
best regards,
Chris MB.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
The original poster Chris Dicken was to whom I was speaking. Sorry for the failure to pin point.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Thanks for clarifying. I'm a bit nervous/sensitive to the fact that I am currently in your 'poseur' category!! A matter that will be rectified asap.
I agree with the comments. Good luck ITER! But the sentiment is purely of theoretical/philosophical merit, given that the majority of the living will never see it complete its objectives, even by its own timetable.
best regards,
Chris MB.
I agree with the comments. Good luck ITER! But the sentiment is purely of theoretical/philosophical merit, given that the majority of the living will never see it complete its objectives, even by its own timetable.
best regards,
Chris MB.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
I have updated my original post with a "EDIT" item near the end to speak to Carl's points. Which I agree with for the most part.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
I for the most part agree with the previous posts but have
to find out for my self anyway.
Its good fun playing with magnets and ions and visually looks better than
most plain electrostatic experiments I have tried if nothing else.
Some may make good ion sources.
I dont like to confine myself (pardon the pun)
Here is a collage of some magnetic confinement attempts.
to find out for my self anyway.
Its good fun playing with magnets and ions and visually looks better than
most plain electrostatic experiments I have tried if nothing else.
Some may make good ion sources.
I dont like to confine myself (pardon the pun)
Here is a collage of some magnetic confinement attempts.
- Attachments
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Dustin,
Can you/are you willing to post more details of your experiments?
It is the business-plan-, target-driven-research mentality that encourages the idea that you should only report successful results.
("yes, we'll fund your research project if you can guarantee a result..."!!
-- I know, it's not quite that bad, but I don't think it's that far from reality.)
A negative outcome can prove to be just as powerful a scientific finding as a postive one. Please report if you are able - but please see if you can get a hold of a better camera!!
best regards,
Chris MB.
Can you/are you willing to post more details of your experiments?
It is the business-plan-, target-driven-research mentality that encourages the idea that you should only report successful results.
("yes, we'll fund your research project if you can guarantee a result..."!!
-- I know, it's not quite that bad, but I don't think it's that far from reality.)
A negative outcome can prove to be just as powerful a scientific finding as a postive one. Please report if you are able - but please see if you can get a hold of a better camera!!
best regards,
Chris MB.
Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
Hi all,
seems I missunderstud the thinking of people here. I apologize for the quick shot yesterday, it was not in my opinion to affront you. In fact, it was prefessers posting in the 'Spidermans Machine' thread that agitated me to write.
Chris
seems I missunderstud the thinking of people here. I apologize for the quick shot yesterday, it was not in my opinion to affront you. In fact, it was prefessers posting in the 'Spidermans Machine' thread that agitated me to write.
Chris
Re: Hostile against magnetic confinement.
I can't quantify any fusion results (I very much doubt there would be any anyway)
Most are just air or hydrogen.
The plan was just to have a 'visual' of the magnetic field effects on ions
and test numerous configurations I thought interesting and kluged. It's difficult to remember how well something worked when you come to shortlist your ideas so I take photos of everything.
I may be able to elaborate on specific configurations via email if you are interested,
I have photos of the dismal failures as well.
I bought an EOS400D for this purpose but it failed after 2 months with the shutter being visible in some of the photos.
I bought this camera in Malaysia while on holiday (about $200 cheaper than here) but the cannon service centre here says It has to return to where it was purchased for warranty repair.
I fail to fathom.
Its been gone for a couple of months now with no word.
Dustin.
Most are just air or hydrogen.
The plan was just to have a 'visual' of the magnetic field effects on ions
and test numerous configurations I thought interesting and kluged. It's difficult to remember how well something worked when you come to shortlist your ideas so I take photos of everything.
I may be able to elaborate on specific configurations via email if you are interested,
I have photos of the dismal failures as well.
I bought an EOS400D for this purpose but it failed after 2 months with the shutter being visible in some of the photos.
I bought this camera in Malaysia while on holiday (about $200 cheaper than here) but the cannon service centre here says It has to return to where it was purchased for warranty repair.
I fail to fathom.
Its been gone for a couple of months now with no word.
Dustin.
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Edward Miller
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Re: Hostile against FUSION
there is a lot of hostility against fusion.
and it's because most people are not enlightened.
you should hear the clean energy people rail on fusion. how it will never work but we can solve our energyproblem/globalwarming with biofuels (that still pollute huge amounts) or plug in hybrids (powered by coal electricity production).
i even had a physics phd/ceo of a major company yelling very loudly at me to give up on fusion. in his mind fusion was a waste of time and a number of great minds had already been wasted working on fusion.
i had a silicon valley venture capitalist tell me that "fusion isn't even possible".
some of the more educated people just giggle. everything other than a billion dollar tokamak is "cold fusion".
some of the scientists i've talked to think i'm crazy.
i know real fusion scientists that are very pessimistic that net energy production ever be viable.
united nuclear, the folks that sell the icf targets to the big laser labs aren't even really into fusion anymore, they're speculating that it's 50+ years out.
yet we press on. and on and on.
when we finally talk to the leading physicist in the world that understands what we're doing, he gets excited and thinks we're on to something.
and then it hits you. there are precious few experts. most people are critics and cynics.
and it's because most people are not enlightened.
you should hear the clean energy people rail on fusion. how it will never work but we can solve our energyproblem/globalwarming with biofuels (that still pollute huge amounts) or plug in hybrids (powered by coal electricity production).
i even had a physics phd/ceo of a major company yelling very loudly at me to give up on fusion. in his mind fusion was a waste of time and a number of great minds had already been wasted working on fusion.
i had a silicon valley venture capitalist tell me that "fusion isn't even possible".
some of the more educated people just giggle. everything other than a billion dollar tokamak is "cold fusion".
some of the scientists i've talked to think i'm crazy.
i know real fusion scientists that are very pessimistic that net energy production ever be viable.
united nuclear, the folks that sell the icf targets to the big laser labs aren't even really into fusion anymore, they're speculating that it's 50+ years out.
yet we press on. and on and on.
when we finally talk to the leading physicist in the world that understands what we're doing, he gets excited and thinks we're on to something.
and then it hits you. there are precious few experts. most people are critics and cynics.
Re: Hostile against FUSION
Eddie -
Your bottom line, is THE bottom line.... many cynics and critics, precious few experts.
Well said!!
Dave Cooper
Your bottom line, is THE bottom line.... many cynics and critics, precious few experts.
Well said!!
Dave Cooper
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Todd Massure
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Re: Hostile against FUSION
I for one am not at all against fusion via a partially or fully magnetically controlled/confined process.
I just like to root for the underdog.
I'm sure everyone here will be more than happy to know that we can all join the ITER fan club now!
http://www.iterfan.org/
yay!
Don't everyone jump on at once (this means you Richard!) you might crash their server!
Todd Massure
I just like to root for the underdog.
I'm sure everyone here will be more than happy to know that we can all join the ITER fan club now!
http://www.iterfan.org/
yay!
Don't everyone jump on at once (this means you Richard!) you might crash their server!
Todd Massure
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hostile against FUSION
I will not encumber there server, I assure you. I have waited a lifetime for fusion power on the grid. Now you get to wait your lifetime. Next please.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Hostile against FUSION
I just started a new thread on the subject.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6801#p42484
There is a link in my reply to Tom Ligon that will lead you (after a couple of clicks) to what Peninsula College has accomplished.
The way out is to get fusor projects started in as many colleges as we can. So far we have one. With another one on the way (mentioned on this blog - any one have a link?)
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6801#p42484
There is a link in my reply to Tom Ligon that will lead you (after a couple of clicks) to what Peninsula College has accomplished.
The way out is to get fusor projects started in as many colleges as we can. So far we have one. With another one on the way (mentioned on this blog - any one have a link?)