Cold fusion hypothesis: Capacitance

[meme]

A recent post elsewhere brought my attention back to cold
fusion, and while I was reading an article, something occurred to
me: the very reason behind the proposal of cold fusion was
because of an anomalous heat output late in the charging of a
cell, producing an amount of anomalous heat that, if it had to be
stored, would have required energy densities on the order of
1W/cm^3 or more, too high to be chemical energy storage.
Which got me thinking about EEStor.

EEStor is a company looking to commercialize their prototype
barium titanate ceramic ultracapacitors, which they call EESUs,
for electric vehicles. With an extreme permittivity of 18,500, a
2,550 cubic inch ultracapactior can hold 52 kWh. Whether or not
they can work effective outside a laboratory setting may be in
question (they're temperature and shock sensitive, for one), but
it's still an impressive feat. Well, that's ~1.25W/cm^3. It
occurred to me: could it be possible that the standard cold fusion
apparatus, which is charged continuously over a long period
before any anomalous heat begins to show, is just an excellent
capacitor?

The process goes like this: an electrolysis cell is created with a
palladium electrode and heavy water. Let's follow this
experiment design:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Loncha ... oducti.pdf.
The cell runs normally for a long period at ~150V, 0.2A (let's say
~30W, although it varies a lot, depending on the setup) for one
to two weeks (net power draw, perhaps around 72 kWh, with a
palladium volume of only 0.393 cubic centimeters -- i.e.,
183kWh/cm^3).

As such cells run, unusual phenomina sometimes begin to occur.
Tiny hotspots, visible on infrared form, and correspond to
microexplosions, detectable by piezoelectric sensors.
Microscopic study of the surface shows that the hotspots form
pits where material has been blown out. A CR-39 detector in
such a cell showed particle traces inside it, suggesting radiation.
Two other controverisal aspects that even some in the cold
fusion community consider to be anomalies but may be real:
neutron production (generally too low to match up with the
excess heat if fusion is the source), and new isotopes (again, in
anomalous amounts).

Let's go back to the ultracapacitor design: an overcharged
capacitor experiences dielectric breakdown. In places where
breakdown occurs (analogous to the hotspots), a large amount
of current flows across the dielectric all at once. In a sort of
capacitor with the kind of energy density we're talking about,
you're talking about a *lot* of energy moving in a very small
space. You're going to create incredibly hot plasma at the
location in question, which one would expect to cause at least
the symptoms of infrared hotspots, explosions detected, and
pitting. I don't know enough about the behavior of CR-39 to
comment specifically, but a lot of particles, including deuterium,
would be flying off of the hotspots at high speed. There's
another interesting prospect: the pinch effect. High power
electric currents in plasma tend to produce vortices that create
plasmoids. Plasmoids accelerate particles to high speeds and
can even create a limited amount of fusion. This could also
explain particle traces, anomalous elements, and neutrons.

Also of note: EEStor's capacitor patent mentions power leaking
out at only 0.1% per month. There's no reason that such a cell
must be considered inherently completely discharged when they
start it up, especially if they've used it before.

I've been searching, trying to find information about the
permittivity of palladium hydrides or metal hydrides in general,
and haven't found much. Also, there's not only metal hydrides to
consider, but the other parts of the setup -- the solution (which
also contains electrolytes), the pyrex glass or whatever other
container is used, reactions in the glass with the electrolytes or
the deuterium, and on and on. And there could be an electric
double layer effect, like powers more conventional
ultracapacitors (EEStor's is more like a regular capacitor on
steroids). Either way, it certainly seems to me that a material
having an unexpected capacitance seems a lot more likely than
the laws of physics governing fusion breaking down
unexpectedly.

Anyone care to poke some holes in my hypothesis? I'd be much
obliged

[Richard Hull]

Electrolytic D2 loading cells are conductive, being an electrolytic cell and not capacitive in any sense of the word.

Even if made to be totally capacitive with no trace chemicals in an absolute de-ionized water scenario, the two tiny electrodes are separated by a significant distance and the capacitance is in the picofarad range. About 15 orders of magnitude LESS storage capacity than super caps.

Any CF cell set up like this, would never load the electrodes which is the object of the game in CF work, thus, the need for a conductive electrolyte and the destruction of any possible capacitive storage capability.

Richard Hull

[meme]

I don't follow. The presence of an electrolyte doesn't rule out
capacitance. Electrolytic caps are two electrodes with the
dielectric soaked with a liquid electrolyte, for example.

Yes, palladium metal is an excellent conductor. But what about
palladium hydrides, specifically palladium saturated with
deuterium? We're not talking about an unloaded cell; we're
talking about a partially to fully loaded one. Metal oxides most
certainly have extremely different dielectric properties from pure
metal. Why should we expect metal hydrides to be the same as
pure metal just because of a different bonding structure? What
evidence do you have that there's no electric double layer in a
loaded electrode? What evidence do you have that capacitance
is ever tested for -- "the name of the game", as you say -- in a
loaded CF cell?

I was hoping for hard data. Do you have some?

[Digix]

lets try to attack this from the back, since front side is too complex.
I am not expert physicist, but probably this will not be problem.

to start fusion you need to significantly decrease distance between atoms nuclei lets say about 1000 times. I believe fusion can happen even at 0K temperature because of quantum tunneling, but it will be to slow to notice. decreasing distance increases rate exponentially.

so how this cold fusion can bring deuterium nuclei so close to each other? from these fusor experiments we know that for good fusion rate atom needs about 10kev energy.
at such energy you will fill any electrode with deuterium probably it will be possible to achieve quite good compression about 10 times or few milions of atm but that will be still to far away from usable fusion rate.

now about these ultra capacitors, I think ir is ordinary bluff, like half of other news about miracle engines, energy storage and similar stuff.

what do you mean saying 1.25W/cm^3. and naming it "energy density"
it is power density if we look at dimension. and actually that is super low power density for capacitor or battery.

2,550 cubic inch ultracapactior can hold 52 kWh. this is more understandable, but still it is absurdly high density.
capacitor energy depends on how much stress can sustain dielectric.
usually extreme permittivity comes with low dielectric strength.
--------------
Now your idea, I suppose that you suggest to use dielectric as electrolyte? so you expect that when breakdown will happen resulting arc will somehow ionize and accelerate D atoms and smash them into palladium?

I think that can work even better than other cold fusion experiments however there are some problems, you will destroy dielectric and electrodes very soon. result will be worse than running current between palladium electrodes in highly compressed deuterium.
result still will be to small to even notice.
most of energy will be wasted for electrode destruction.

if you want to make some visible fusion reaction that way quite a high current and voltage is required ant it will be definitely not so cold.

[Carl Willis]

To me it's as reasonable a hypothesis as any other, but limited in that the phenomenon under consideration may or may not exist, and may or may not be unique to the Pd-D2O electrolytic system. In short, very little of substance to hypothesize about at this point.

Almost a year ago today, I sent the following as part of an email to a fellow fusor builder:

>In my opinion these LENR experiments are incomplete and draw far-reaching conclusions from questionable data. For instance, these Navy guys think they're getting characteristic x-rays from their reactor, but the spectra they present do not have statistically significant numbers of counts. They claim to be forming metallic elements in the electrodes, but don't have the mass spec isotopic analyses that might suggest a nuclear origin to these impurities. And the reliance on track detectors in such a chemical environment is perhaps not justified. Overall, there's evidence that this Navy lab is not well-versed in statistically rigorous nuclear metrology, which is so far the backbone for their LENR claims. They probably don't have the budget to use many of the resources that would be highly indicated for this line of work (large-area SiLi or germanium x-ray spectrometers, isotopic mass spectrometers, charged-particle spectroscopy equipment). I have always been quite disappointed with the LENR research in general because those involved with it just can't seem to grasp the metrology issues. An exception is "bubble fusion," which I follow closely. Some ostensibly very convincing data has come out in support of this phenomenon."

Richard's got a good intuitive point--the electrolyte is conductive, the mixed-phase palladium hydrides formed are conductive, and the geometry would not seem to suggest the possibility for large amounts of capacitively-stored energy. Of course, the whole process supposedly involving energy release is a mystery. When someone with decent funds who's willing to put grandiose visions aside and work towards simple repeatability and sound measurement enters the picture, there will be more to think about.

-Carl

[DaveC]

I understand the direction Meme is going, and there is something to this line of reasoning.

First, as to electrolytic capacitance... we should all know this is real stuff...Electrolytic capacitors have been around forever... practically. Their dielectric is a few molecules thick layer of aluminum oxide, formed on the surface of the negative electrode. (This is why they are polarized, having a positive and negative electrode.) But we all knew that, anyway....

Years ago, while studying the behavior of stainless steel polarization in a 1000 ppm NaCl (salt water) solution, it was mentioned that the double layer capacitance of even small electrodes was rather large. So I hooked up the General-Radio capacitance bridge and measured the "capacitance" of a 1/4" dia. x 6" long stainless steel rod in a salt water electrolyte.

The bridge indicated approximately 1 microfarad...with a very large value of dissipation factor. It was very lossy as a capacitor, but energy was being stored. About 4.5 sq inches of surface area... for a microfarad. I did not determine the breakdown voltage of the double layer. But it is probably only a few tenths to a volt or so. So the energy stored in the capacitance would be 1/2 CV^2 or about 1/2 a micro joule. Not likely to burn or pit anything, even if delivered in a microsecond. But then, we were doing eletrolysis stuff, not energy storage.

Ultilies (power and communication) use a device called a "polarization cell" to provide very low AC ground impedance while providing DC isolation. This allows underground equipment to be safely grounded to AC, yet float with regard to small DC voltages such as in cathodic protection systems.

A polarization cell consists of a number of approximately sq foot sized stainless steel plates, in a potassium hydroxide solution. Alternate plates are connected in parallel.... making a giant electrolytic capacitor. Such devices can handle upwards of 40 -50 kA, with AC voltage drops of less than 40 Volts RMS.... for about 1 second.

So an electrolytic cell should reasonably be expected to have capacitance... How much is the issue and whether it could account for some of the strange phenomena is an interesting idea to ponder.

I would expect the charge retention to be fairly modest, since the dielectric is no doubt lossy... lots of pinholes that conduct. This means the stored energy level would depend on continual replenishment by the electrolytic current into the cell.

It would not be a very hard thing to measure the cell capacitance...probably any Capacitance meter, including DVM's is capable... provided it can handle Dissipation factors of several thousand, or more.

To get really high density energy storage, though, some sort of highly anisotropic molecular structure is required such as in the Titanates, other of the Perovskite materials.

Dave Cooper

[Richard Hull]

Again the electrode spacing in all CF cells is significant and the electrodes small, even with and equivalent thickness of pure strontium titanate replacing all the liquid and having a dielectric constant of 10,000 there would be little or no net energy storage capacity and the normal loading voltages of 5-20 volts!

Give this idea up forever!

If CF is happening in the localized spots as is so often reported, trust me, it has nothing to do with capacitively stored energy as a causitive agent.

The limiting factors are the very low voltages present and separation of the electrodes. The whole cell is totally polar and not polarized in the normal capacitive sense.

Richard Hull

[meme]

Speaking of double layer capacitance, which is largely about
surface area:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990dsmp.rept.....P

Title: Dendritic surface morphology of palladium hydride
produced by electrolytic deposition

Abstract: Conventional and high-resolution electron microscopic
studies of electrolytically-deposited palladium hydride reveal a
fascinating variety of surface profile morphologies. The
observations provide direct information concerning the surface
structure of palladium electrodes and the mechanism of
electrolytic deposition of palladium black. Both classical
electrochemical mechanisms and recent modified
diffusion-limited-aggregation computer simulations are discussed
in comparison with the experimental results.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991IJMPB...5.1377B

Title: Fractal Analysis of Electrolytically-Deposited Palladium
Hydride Dendrites

The fractal scaling characteristics of the surface profile of
electrolytically-deposited palladium hydride dendritic structures
have been obtained using convention and high-resolution
transmission electron microscopy. The results are in remarkable
agreement with the modified diffusion-limited aggregation model
due to Vicsek (Phys. Rev. Lett. 54 (1985)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 12e60d46c2

Electroless deposition of Pt at a Pd electrode by reaction with
sorbed H in Pd/H

Excerpt: "Ex situ examination of the surface of the Pd H
reference electrode under the scanning electron microscope,
after withdrawal from the cell and solution, revealed a beautiful
network of dendritic metal crystals (Fig. 1) adhering to the Pd
surface. Energy-dispersive X-ray emission analysis clearly
identified the deposit as platinum metal (Fig. 2) on a background
of Pd. "

And so forth. Lots of papers about fractaline/dendritic patterns in
palladium hydrides. Of course, simply having a large surface
area alone isn't enough, but it's an important step.

[Quantum]

"Electrolytic D2 loading cells are conductive, being an electrolytic cell and not capacitive in any sense of the word. "

Not so...An electrolytic cell works like a 'leaky' capacitor.

(By the way, this thread seems to be answering some questions I've been working on for years.)

[Chris Bradley]

Do explain what you've been working on, the suspense is killing me....

[Chris Trent]

While we're on the subject and my brain is ticking I might as well toss a couple of thoughts out.

If Deuterium loading is causing an expansion of the palladium lattice then you may have the opportunity for microscopic piezoelectric regions. Localized capacitance of isolated palladium grains could then account for some small amount of stored energy that would not likely dissipate over time. I doubt these microscopic regions would have any significant effect on the bulk properties of the electrodes, and they might explain some of the observed effects.

More likely: Piezoelectric\\Pyroelectric Fusion induced by the Deuterium loading of the metal hydride would explain the various anomalous elements while releasing the stored tension in the lattice in the form of "Excess" energy. (Far more release of stored energy than fusion) I suspect it would take a specific lattice structure for this to happen though, which might explain why CF is so hard to reproduce.


I'm no expert. Heck, I don't even follow cold fusion efforts (Um Sorry, Nuclear Condensed Matter Physics), but even I can find plenty of alternative theories for it. Hopefully scientific rigor will sort this out some time soon.


-Eagerly awaiting for someone to prove me wrong yet again.
--Chris

[Quantum]

Well, Chris, For example, Take electro-etching and electro-polishing for example. Subject to certain other operating parameters, If you turn on an electrolytic cell, and increase the voltage up from zero, current rises with voltage, and electro-etching occurs at the anode. If you continue to increase voltage, current increases, as does the rate of etching, as you would expect......UNTIL....a certain point is reached (depending on other parameters, then, you can increase voltage, quite considerably, with no increase in current, or increase in etch rate....UNTIL....a point is reached where current, once again, continues to rise proportionately with voltage, but etching has stopped, and electro-polishing commences. From this point on, current continues to rise with voltage, and rate of polishing rises correspondingly.

This suggests to me that more is occuring than simple 'electron migration', and that metal ions may be playing a part.

Now, due to the nature of the electrolyte, it's possible to get localized concentrations of constituents, so the 'pressure differential' can vary, due to random events (Maybe I'm going farther than I need to here, and raising two points a once), and, I'm going to stick my neck out here.....It's also more than presumption that 'background muons' WILL, on occasion, find their way into a system like the Pons/Fleischmann experiment, possibly resulting in SOME (very limited) muon catalyzed fusion.(for example).

I've gone much further here than I ought to. But can you explain the first phenomena, and can you deny that muon catalyzed fusion 'could' take place, albeit on a very small scale' in an electrolytic cell?

Cosmic ray generation, which causes 'ground level background muons' can vary enormously, depending on things like sunspot activity, etc......And I'm not going to 'stake my reputation on it' by a long way, but there is lots tha can, and does, occur in electrolytic cells that is yet to be explained.

[Richard Hull]

Muon catalyzed fusion!

Again!...... Oh no!

Run for cover lads.

Richard Hull

[Richard Hull]

That's the spirit. Open minds and the realization that wording may change as knowledge expands in the process.

Processes that aren't readily explained will certainly be explained at some point, perhaps landing in areas not even thought of now and many parsecs distant from the original concept and its related wording.

Richard Hull