Argon Tube Power Source

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Q
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by Q » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:43 pm

ok, i have to ask, why do you use a 40 watt lamp as a current limiter? why not use a heavy duty resistor? yes you would still have thermal issues with the resistance, but it would be way more stable that a lamp filiment.

also, have you tried any other type of load on the output side of the circuit? how well will it run an inductive load? (motor)

i agree, unless you have the correct test equipment, under good calibration, AND use it properly, any measurments taken are useless. however, i would think that getting a rough idea of the input power would be a necessary first step. (even if you cant afford an oscilloscope, perhaps you could borrow one? most schools will have someone around that would gladly help you test this device out)

just some random thoughts...
Q

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Richard Hull
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by Richard Hull » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:05 pm

That variac buzz could be an approaching resonant point and you can really be fooled there with energy distribution. Make sure your brush isn't dancing around in arc mode as well.

So many unquantified reactive variables here.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

AbbaRue
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by AbbaRue » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:39 am

I'm using light bulbs at the moment because its the easyest source of high power resistor I can get. Radio Shack don't carry high power resistors. And bulbs are cheap at Canadian tire. 4 for 89 cents.
Today I have been making some more intensive measurements, still runing a 100 watt bulb.
On the DC end I measured 330 VDC @ 175 milliamps. That works out to 57.75 Watts input. On the AC output end entering the 100 watt bulb, I got 155 VAC @ 520 milliamps. that works out to 80.6 watts.
The frequency was at 200 Hz so my meter don't react fast enough to the pulses, so I suspect the AC readings should be slightly higher.

Still studying this phenomenon, will keep you updated. Harold

TBenson
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by TBenson » Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:45 am

Perpetual motion. Bah.

AbbaRue
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by AbbaRue » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:31 pm

I have been doing some detailed measurements in the last few days, sure time consuming.
Anyway below are two charts of the detailed measurements taken.
The first one is using 100 watt bulb as output.
The second one is using 2x100 watt bulbs in parallel.
The 2x100 watt bulbs didn't recieve enough current to light to full brightness, but the tube tried it's best. Ran very well.

The measurements are arranged in increasing order according to what the AC output of the tube was. As my tube slowly looses vacuum the AC voltage goes up. So it appears that the higher the vacuum the lower the power output. The output current and voltage goes up at a steady rate until the vacuum is to low to sustain the discharges. If I could build a tube that didn't loose it's vacuum, it could be tweeked to get the best output to input ratio and sealed at that spot. A glass discharge tube should do the trick, but I don't have the glass blowing tech. needed. Anyway below are the measured resaults.


And to the preveous replyer, this isn't perpetual motion, but the conservation of energy, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only converted from one form to another. These tubes are collecting some form of energy and converting it to electrical energy. I don't believe in any form or perpetual energy, but I have read that the amount of cosmic energy bombarding this earth 24x7's is enough power to light 1.5 million 100 watt bulbs for each man, woman, and child on this earth. All we need to do is find a way of converting cosmic radiation into usable electricity and all our energy problems would be over. Thanks for the replies and keep experimenting, the answer to endless energy is out there.
Till later Harold.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:59 pm

I'll bet you used a real nice digital multimeter to take these measurements; didn't you?

It lied to you, of course. All of your measured figures are in error! A good engineer or even a technician would know that.
None would have consulted a digital volt and ammeter to read or record data from this circuit. They would realize that the meter would lie through its teeth, based on some silly averaging the factory provided (like for pure, in phase sine waves of voltage and current).

The factory did its best, but they assumed a certain knowledge on behalf of the user, (always dangerous - assuming).

Only a 4 channel high speed data logger system taking about 10,000 samples or more a second for voltage and current in and out of this system and calculating and plotting the wattage 10,000/sec will come close to telling the real story here. You would find the Pin vs. Pout curves so generated to nearly overlap (true conservation of energy.)

This is the real stumbling point with the new energy crowd..........They use electronic meters to record their electronic data in circuits that go buzz, bang, boom, pop, arc and fizz. Somethng the meters were never designed to do.

Note* Some bench top O'scopes in the $3000 class have a single computational trace channel where channel one can be assigned voltage and channel two assigned current and a third channel will compute and display real time power (E x I).

But, why blow the big bucks when a $600.00 "pico scope" hooked to a computer will do all this for you (provided you are not getting microsecond events in your power data.)

For a real insight into real data logging done on supposed overunity systems go to:

http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html


This is the Earthtech site. These are real new energy researchers with a decent budget, plus, they have brains and knowhow. They are looking at only new energy devices and systems. They, unfortanately, are not seeming to find any. Look, especially, at their carefully conducted experiments and data logged Pin/Pout results.

These folks are honest and damned good at what they do. They do only one thing for their paychecks.......the test for the veracity of overunity systems. Their "money source" demands that they do only that.

It is downright amazing how those Pout plot reuslts are always just below the Pin plots.......They move on, in their plodding way, to the next overunity claim and take it from the top, (carefully), yet once again.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

AbbaRue
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by AbbaRue » Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:02 am

I tested one of my other tubes to see what readings I would get with it, and I got very close to the same type of readings with it.
Because of the higher current output I was getting from the tube with 2x100 Watt bulbs connected, I tried using 600 watts for the output, and the current readings I was getting (with the vacuum set right) were averaging about 1.25 amps at 175 Volts. That's 218.75 Watts output. And my input measurements were about 175 Volts at 225 mA that's 39.375 watts input. This means I am getting 5.5 times the wattage output to the wattage input.
That's 450 % over unity.
I tried hooking up a 1000 watt baseboard heater to the tube and I still got about 1.25 amps, so it appears this is the maximum current the tube can put out. 1.25 amps. But the most interesting thing is the input voltage and current didn't change when I connected and disconnected the higher load, even with the 1000 watt baseboard heater connected.
Even if I'm not using $600 meters or high cost oscillascopes, these differences are to high to account for because of lack of accuracy.
I am starting to wonder about the people on this forum, how much more proof do you need. When I had one 100 watt bulb connected I was typically getting 50 % over unity, when I tried 2x100 watt bulbs I was getting 100 % over unity then when I used 600 watts worth of load I got 450 % over unity, how long will you guys refuse to accept the obvious. Sorry for getting so exited about this, but there is a point were common logic has to kick in. I am using 5 different meters from 4 different manufacturers, I am using both analog and digital meters, and still get the same typical readings.
450 % over unity is just to large a difference to logically dismiss because of poor equipment.
Com'mon man were is your logical common sense gone. I could understand the 50 % over unity as an error but not 450 %.
And I had the tube runing for a good 3 hours taking measurements, this isn't a breif reading this is a steady average reading.
And even with the vacuum not set just right, I almost always get over 2.5 times the output to input, with the 600 watt load connected. So greater then 150% over unity is the norm for this tubes output.

Till later Harold.

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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by Adam Szendrey » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:44 pm

Harold i appriciate your enthusiasm, but it is obivious that nothing has been prooved, exept for the fact, that you don't have the proper instrumentation and knowledge to verify your own claims. Yes that is harsh, but that is the way i see it. You have been told SEVERAL times in this thread, that you should use a high sampling rate data loggign system, or a good digital o-scope, but you simply ignore it, because you WANT your device to work...it would be great, i would love a portable source of endless energy, but desire and fact are usually not overlapping.
Simple multimeters (digital or not) CAN produce such different readings, they proove nothing at all.

If you'll ever power this device via it's own output (or at least provide reliable data), i will (and i think all of us) accept that it can tap into the ZPE, active vacuum, or whatever we call it.
On the other hand Harold is right about over-unity. There is no such thing, energy is always conserved, BUT where that energy comes from is another matter. In an "OU" device the energy comes from a source we are not familiar with, that's all, the device itself can be thought of as a kind of "transistor".

Oh and science...it IS faith...

Adam

AbbaRue
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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by AbbaRue » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:46 pm

My reason for posting on this forum is because I realized that anyone who is trying to build a fusor, probably already had everything they need to build one of these Argon discharge tubes. But they may not have all the equipment needed to build a fusor yet. So in the mean while as a side project they may want to build and test one of these discharge tubes out. Good way to get your feet wet in working with vacuums and how to get the power to the components in the vacuum.
Maybe someone who has a good 4 input scope can build and test one of these and give us pictures of the scope waveforms. I have my own scope but the power supply transformer for it burned out and I haven't been able to find a schematic for it to get the transformer specs. If I knew what the transformer output voltages are supossed to be I could design another power supply for it. I spent a few hours on google looking for leads but didn't come up with anything. I had the scope given to me by my boss when I worked as an electronic tech. a few years ago. The only model information it has on it is Samick 505, which is printed on the front of the scope above the display. No other model info found anywhere. If anyone has one of these of there own let me know.
I'm sorry I can't satisfy the skeptics on this forum with high quality measurements that satisfy there requirements, at this time. I am trying my best, with what I have. Maybe I picked the wrong forum to join, I found no one else that's interested in this project, I only got skeptisism. I hoped to find some pioneer spirit from someone on this forum, but even after my measurements got 5.5 times the power out, no one is willing to give this even a little more consideration.
They just pushed it off as poor measurements.
I think Adam Szendrey said it best. " Oh and science...it IS faith..." so like any other religeous fanatic, if someone comes up with something that violates your faith you just brush it off as a falsehood, without giving it a second thought.

Sorry for waisting your time and forum space, I will look for a more receptive group on another forum.

Bye for now Harold

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Re: Argon Tube Power Source

Post by Starfire » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:19 pm

Harold - many folk on the forum are deeply involved in the persuite of Fusion and commit there time and efforts toward this. All have their own opinions but respect any ideas from whatever source. I have equipment to test your project but would find it a diversion from my own direction. This is not from disrespect of your ideas but my own agenda priority. BTW you can obtain ready made glass plasma tubes. - try contacting the seller of a tube I had bought -- ebay 7551176344 - he will supply others. { you will notice from the date of the win - it was before your original post. Many of us try many things }

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