Heavy water musings

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Roberto Ferrari
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Re: heavy water musings

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Yes.
No surplus or eBay available?
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Q
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Q »

richard,
i remember seeing something on your water arc expiriments before, but i have never been able to find the paper that you refer to. where may i obtain a copy of it?

also, i have been thinking about this idea quite a bit in the last couple of days. very interesting.... i am quite curious how it will turn out. please keep us posted.


Q
Hayabusa
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Hayabusa »

Hi Richard,

It sounds like you might be building yourself a mini-H-bomb, if you succeed.

How much energy would be released from a sphere of D2O with a 1" diameter?

Also I suspect that the amount of pressure reached before a fusion reaction can take place would be huge, and that your 3"x 3" block of hardened Aluminum would be insufficient to contain that kind of pressure.

I’m not an expert by any means, but I do like to inspire ideas in those who are more capable of deriving a more thorough conclusion. So I will propose a rough idea.

I think to calculate the pressure needed for the ignition, which by the sounds of it should occur at the gap. First the pulse duration needs to be calculated. Then the speed of the spherical pressure wave needs to be calculated. The product of the results from the first two calculations, divided by 2 will yield a radius.

The result reflects the radius of the sphere, which will undergo spontaneous fusion, after a certain number of pulses have raised the energy to the level where fusion may occur.

Then calculate how much energy is required to raise the pressure of a sphere of the calculated size above to the level where fusion may occur.

This is just a very crude guide, but it may give you an idea as to what pressure level will be needed for this reaction to start.

Then calculate how much pressure will result from the entire spherical D20 fusing, as once the reaction starts it will continue through to the remaining fuel. Your block will need to withstand this pressure as a minimum, and don't forget to add lots of margin ;>)

Rog
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Hayabusa »

Another thought,

Once you calculate the energies involved, you'll find (my gut tells me) that the energy/temprature would melt/vaporize your aluminum block well before you get anywhere near the levels required for fusion to take place.

Rog
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Richard Hull
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Richard Hull »

Nothing is new in what you note.

I am banking on the real world coming to my AID and not allowing me to do fusion well as posited in my original little thought experiment scenario. I am hoping it would succeed at some measurable level and fail misearably at making anything that smacks of net energy generation. This would gratify me mightily. For it would show that converting even a tiny fraction of the deuterium on hand is just not possible.....But.....We could do fusion with it.....Hopefully.

It would show that vacuums and plasmas, as commonly applied, aren't needed to do fusion. Herein, would be a nice little coup worthy of some small note.

As for figuring deuterium energy contained in a sphere.... We have already done that bit in another post and while a nice exercise, it is one of sheer futility as we will never convert such a sphere, enmass, to energy.

I was more concerned in my original musings about drooling or puking out the heavy water due to conventional electrically generated forces than the meaningless returns due to hoped for fusion.

I guess a lot of folks here must think I am out to make usable, viable fusion energy. Phooey!

Know ye, all present, that I am not out to save or power the world with fusion for I view it as a currently futile and silly gesture. I am out only to do fusion by as many novel and interesting means as might present themselves to me with no expectation of return beyond a few neutrons heralding that I have succeeded in doing fusion.

I believe, deep down inside me, at a visceral level, that doing fusion is easy......Doing power ready fusion, at profit, virtually impossible.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Retric
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Retric »

IMO it's an interesting idea, I think the basic idea of a focused
shockwave is a vary promising approach. However…

Water is compressible in extreme situations such as anywhere near
fusion energy’s so the shockwaves are not going to be as sharp as
you might hope for.

You are expending a lot of energy exciting the oxygen. The increase
in available D might be useful but it would be much better to have
similar levels of gas without the oxygen contamination. I don’t know
what it would take to get similar gas densities outside of D2O.

As you increase the temperature of the water you are going to have
pressure containment issues simply to the rise in temperature. So a
good pressure release system is vary important otherwise your going
to get inconsistent results as you keep breaking parts of the system.

The cables are going to create all sorts of distortions around your
shock waves.

Your pulses are going to reduce the compression at the center so it’s
probably best to use the shortest pulse duration possible. Which
means timing is going to be a PITA.

I do think this is a good idea and welcome any experimental data.

PS: I don’t think there is anyway to approximate the propagation of
these shockwaves outside of supercomputer style simulations.
However, with a little experimentation you could probably get some of
the classic inertial fusion people interested and they have access to
the real big number crunchers...

Go for it
001userid
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by 001userid »

This is a very ingenious idea. Somewhat like Capillary fusion. It should yield better counts. Keep the amps down to prevent electrolysis. Will take some serious containment. Generous steel construction should be needed. The Steam part has me a little baffled. When the water turns to steam it will try to increase 1400 times original size, but if contained, how much will have to be dealt with? I see how some of the weak parts could turn out to be strengths. This is really a great idea!!
Best Regards, Joe Sal
001userid
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by 001userid »

Repercussion in heavy water

Here is a rough design from a mix of ideas:

-Two high strength steel chambers (coated) are seperated by a hydrogen permeable metal, titanium in this case.

-The titanium has two cones machined on either side with a small hole drilled to connect the chambers.

-The titanium could be used as the Deuterium side of a slow electrolysis cell.

-Or, Create Positive water ions at titanium surface.

The water arc is used to create pressure waves in the Titanium.


Joe Sal
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Javier Lopez
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Javier Lopez »

I have designed a discharge unit to test it. But there is interesting that if capacitor banks series resistance is vey small, it is better not to adapt impedances. See attached figure.
I have another design that provokes an oscillation at the desires frequency and level in order to meke resonate the chamber.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Richard Hull »

For those posting a bit earlier....... I was never thinking of heating the water thermically. Goodness no! No where near boiling. I was looking at light, sharp electrical pulsing and only a few pulses or I would heat the water. I never worried about steam pressure, but more about the brisance of the dielectric explosion.

My work with the Graneaus and Hathaway published in the Journal of Plamsa physics on Water arc explosions showed that dumping many joules of rapid electrical discharge energy into 1 cc of water would not heat it at all, effectively. Little steam was produced but a tremendous dielectric based shock wave was produced.

We never could get a clear handle on the ultimate mechasnism, though we did hypothesize. And there it stands.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Javier Lopez
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Javier Lopez »

I found this interesting link explaining how water is atomized (atomize=go to gas without heating). I do not know how it is possible: http://www.powerlabs.org/waterarc.htm
But as long as Lawson criterion if there is not enougth temperature it will be not fusion (Sun pressure at the center is >10^10 Atm (?) and only fuses a little part).
Is the test possible using iced water?: I think in iced water the pulse must be shorter but with more amplitude.
GMacDonald
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by GMacDonald »

Isentropic compression from a dielectric induced shock wave
OMG ! … it works …step one fusion

Is your paper posted here ?
Brisance …peek pressures and densities ??
Does it follow Riemann ???

DG MacDonald
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Richard Hull
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Re: Heavy water musings

Post by Richard Hull »

No the paper is not posted as it is the property of the Journal of Plasma Physics. It was reprinted by permission in Infinite Energy magazine, though, a few years back.

Again, WE WERE NOT looking at water arc explosions for fusion in our paper, but were looking at light water bond energy issues.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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