Ball Lightning

This forum is for other possible methods for fusion such as Sonolumenescense, Cold Fusion, CANR/LENR or accelerator fusion. It should contain all theory, discussions and even construction and URLs related to "other than fusor, fusion".
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Richard Hull
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Ball Lightning

Post by Richard Hull » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:58 pm

This subject has recently been revived by my long time friend and associate Scott Fusare.

This subject has long captivated me, but its very nature was like that of cold fusion, CANR-LENR and the like. It appears real, but there is no theory, no empirically fixed replicability, and in general no money in the effort. Thus all these subjects are slowly picked at like a scab that woun't go away simply because it is all so visible and scientifically annoying.

I am currently reading a fabulous wake-up paper by D.J. Turner, Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol 17, No.3, pp 435-496. It is entitled, "The Missing Science of Ball Lightning".

In this paper Turner, a long time private researcher and theorist on ball lighting, gives a 60 page treatise with copius references. It is a must read for all interested. He hints at his belief that ball lightning is at the cusp point between physics and chemistry. This is something I have long held out as being at the core of cold fusion, CANR-LENR and of the strange water arc energy release phenomena. Water, its chemistry and its physics, is at the core of all of these processes. Turner mentions that water's near infinite compressibility and near infinite dilution of chemical salt ions allow for long lived ionic states in said medium at the critical point of water vapor. (374 deg C. @ 221 bar). he notes that this is a grossly understudied field due to it complexity and non-profitability.

I Quote, "It became clear to me that there are, in fact, many areas of classical physics in which the basic science is much less well understood than most physicists would like to believe. This knowledge reinforced my conviction that what we do not understand about vapour-phase electrochemistry is connected in some way with what we do not understand about ball lightning."

And, " It is currently impossible to define the thermodynamic properties of ions at infinite dilution in saturated water vapour."

Finally, "This seems to have deterred good scientists from investigating areas that involve both chemistry and really messy physics." (combinationally)

I feel, along with Scott, that really tremdous energies are just not needed to make ball lightning. Yes, seed energy is needed, but it appears that a fast dv/dt couples with moist air and the presence of large dielectric interfacial surfaces in a manner that is deeply involved as seed conditions far more than just supplying mega-joules of energy.

Turner hints that the plasma is an acreted, long lived, self enclosed ionic state within the pervue of the chemistry and physics of water vapor. He notes that a gravitational field may be demanded for these processes to take place.

Much amateur effort could be lauched here. This, I feel, is where a lot of old fashioned Roentgen-Becquerel like "pokin' around in the lab based on annicdotal evidence and reported conditions might conquer the issue of replicability long before any theoretical precusor exists, again, much as in the case of Roentgen and Becquerel's masterful discoveries. For engineers were designing better x-ray tubes and doctors were using x-radiation for diagnostics long before there was even the slightest theoretical foundation for the rays. Theorectical nuclear physics dragged way behind daily discoveries in the early 20th century. Here is another fecund area for "poke-around" research.

Who knows, Fusion may be at the core. I would just love to super saturate air with D2O, get a ball lightning nucleated around it and place the BTI bubble detector near it. (ball lightnings couldn't be tested for nuets with any electronic counter).

Interestingly, Sono-fusion/sono-luminescense are a vapor-phase in a medium. Posssibly Deuterium atoms in a lattice are a form of ultimately diluted vapor phase in a metal (CF). Water arc energy releases have been shown to rely heavily on the microscopic water vapor state created by the electrical explosion. Food for thought and, perhaps, experiment.


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by ChrisSmolinski » Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:20 pm

That sounds extremely fascinating, Richard. I found the article online:

http://www.scientificexploration.org/js ... turner.pdf

This does indeed appear to be one arena where a dedicated
researcher, with a modest lab, and willing to put forth a lot of hard work, could
make some interesting discoveries. Long before the properly degreed even
know something is going on.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by Richard Hull » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:48 pm

Chris, thanks for the URL!! I neglected to include it..... I edited your post so that the URL would be clickable. Your original was not a clickable listing. I altered nothing else in your post.

This is a long paper, 60+ pages, and it is suggested that those with a fast connection and a fast printer, might print it out for reference material.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by Starfire » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:57 pm

See Scott Fusare's post in files

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by erich_knight » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:17 pm

Dear Mr. Hull,

Have you read Clint Seward's paper It also provides a theoretic base for ball lighting , he is president of Electron Power Systems :
Ball Lightning Explained as a Stable Plasma Toroid


Erich

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by MARK-HARRISS » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:32 am

Got any photographs of the stable plasma in action?.

Mark H

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by Mark Rowley » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:20 am

Richard,
Here is a brief but interesting paper on ball lightning which was created by a tesla coil discharge in a steam vortex.

http://home.dmv.com/~tbastian/lightning.htm

Mark Rowley

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:34 am

An awful lot of ifs in that paper by King. I don't put much faith in his work. His name is bounced around a lot in some new energy circles but with no results.

I asked Scott to post the URL for the paper in the Files section earlier today. I am glad he did. It is now reference here as well as in the files.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Scott Fusare
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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by Scott Fusare » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:49 am

Moray King is, in my opinion, simply a more humble version of Tom Bearden. You can read several of his papers in the Proceedings of the International Tesla Symposium, 1986 has the most if I recall correctly. He has much to say but with absolutely zero attempts at any experimentation to support his wild theories.

For those that would dig deeper into current BL theories I would like to suggest the following:

15/01/02 issue of Philosophical Transactions A (Royal Society journal). The entire issue is devoted to BL and makes for wonderful reading. The theories presented are primarily the newer electrochemical ideas. There is also a great compendium of previously unreleased Russian reports.

"Ball Lightning: An Unsolved Problem in Atmospheric Physics"
by Mark Stenhoff, Plenum Press, 1999, ISBN:0306461501
A great overview, particularly of the many theories bandied about throughout the years.

Perusal of the IEEE and Phys. Rev. will turn up some interesting (but mostly older) papers. Some are experimental but most are theory related.

This is a tough phenomenon for mainstream science to embrace given some of the more esoteric properties that BL seems to posses. Its very existence was an open debate in academic circles in the not too distant past. It recalls the dismissive attitude that used to be taken on the phenomena of Sprites. I suppose anything this rare and transitory is guaranteed such a reception.....

No one theory that has thus far been offered up explains all the properties reported. Some choose to simply ignore that which their theory does not explain, other dismiss the offensive properties as being the misinterpretations (or outright fabrications) of the uneducated masses. This ignores the fact that many highly respected scientists have been witness to ball lightning (allegedly even Niels Bohr). My personal belief is that science still lacks the framework within which a good theory could be constructed. I think a better approach is an empirical attempt at reproducing ball lightning. There are statistical “common themes” in the voluminous sightings. Of course, this is easy to say – no one has yet succeeded! Plasma balls in your microwave oven and Golka’s burning metal spheres floating on water are NOT (in my opinion) ball lightning.

Let me close my spiel with a quote from Turner’s paper “Reproducibility in the formation of lightning balls” (Journal of Meteorology, vol. 21, #214 – Dec. 1996):

“Furthermore, the model suggests one reason for the difficulty in preparing ball lightning in the laboratory. This has been the failure to recognize that its stability has equally important electrical, hydrodynamic and chemical aspects. Nature appears to find it somewhat easier to balance these influences than scientists do.”

He is, of course, referring to his own theory. I don’t find his theory completely satisfying, but I do heartily agree that an interdisciplinary approach is needed. We in the “amateur scientist” (or whatever we choose to call ourselves) community may be in a unique position to contribute. Many of us fall into the “jack of all trades, master of none” category in a scientific disciplinary sense; I think this is just what is needed. We are self funded and not obliged to play the “publish or perish” game that currently paralyzes academia. Most of us do not fear making a “fool’s experiment” and that alone is a powerful tool for potential advancement (and, of course, self delusion if good scientific practice and rigor are forgotten).

Scott

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Re: Ball Lightning

Post by David Rosignoli » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:27 pm

Bill Beaty has a ball lightning book reference located here:
http://amasci.com/tesla/ballbook.html

And a generic ball lightning page here:
http://www.amasci.com/tesla/ballgtn.html

An excellant reference for science anamolies is found here:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/
(try a search for ball lightning)

Also, issue 7 of the Electric Spacecraft Journal had an interesting reference to Gorgons (enormously large ball lightning - many 10's or 100's of meters in diamter - emerging from volcanoes).

I agree that BL (at least the one I like to think of - moving through solids intact, ...) is not really Microwave Oven plasma balls or molten metal shooting from a switch. There are many different descriptions of BL, some more suitable to a purely chemical makeup than others. Stanley Singer wrote a good book (The Nature of Ball Lightning?) that summarizes the different characteristics and different theories on how it worked.

I think one of the problems is the lack of a good definition to it. There isn't just one type.

Has anyone here replicated it and, if so, how did you do it?

Thanks.

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