I submit SLAC's site's explanation of Beta decay via the "standard model". followed by Richard's "what we see model".
SLAC************
The weak interaction was first recognized in cataloging the types of nuclear radioactive decay chains, as alpha, beta, and gamma. decays. Alpha and gamma decays can be understood in terms of other known interactions (residual strong and electromagnetic, respectively). But, to explain beta decay required the introduction of an additional rare type of interaction -- called the weak interaction.
Beta decay is a process in which a neutron (two down quarks and one up) disappears and is replaced by a proton (two up quarks and one down), an electron, and an anti-electron neutrino. According to the Standard Model, a down quark disappears in this process and an up quark and a virtual W boson is produced.. The W boson then decays to produce an electron and an anti-electron type neutrino. This can be represented by the Feynman diagram..............
Richard's "what we see" ******************
A neutron is seen to decay to a proton and an electron with missing mass/binding energy partially seen to be carried off in the kinetic energy of the two particles plus some additional energy also leaves in some un-seen, un-detected manner. As such nothing more can be assumed, using ocam's razor, than the neutron is a combinational system of unknown nature and form composed of a proton and an electron and mass defect or binding energy
The difference in the two statements above is that their discussion involves never seen, super massive, GEV events involving hypothesized sub-particles that are never recorded. It is what they think happens at a sub level that niether you or I, or anyone else, can verify or see. (the GEV particles and massives are just not recorded on a track in a chamber, of course, because some of it is patently "virtual" or occurs outdside of that which is observable.) Part of the magic of the new physics. (Saves a lot of messy proof and lab time.) However, it is all part of a thoroughly organized and totally self-consistent plan called the standard model. It is designed to explain things at a level that is unknowable by observable test, but readily inferred from bubble chamber events invisibly linked through meters of liquid hydrogen where there are 10,000 other unrelated events to be seen. They will tell you what events are relavent to prove their theory. Trust them.
My statement, you can go the bank with and see the particle tracks of the real particles with ease and with the expenditure of zero energy. I am not telling you about anything that is an article of faith or a theory. Just solid, observed fact.
I point to no theory or try to convince you I have things figured out at any deeper level than that which is observable.
For those so inclined, the SLAC Quark zoo is explained in all its hand waving glory at:
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theor ... eract.html
It is really worth the read....Honest. You don't know how far out on the standard model limb physics is unless you read this LAYMAN's guide to quarks and why more millions need to flow into SLAC to help them "fight the good fight".
Oh, While you are there look at the "conservation laws" There are about 9 of 'em.
If you check, you will find that only three are without gotchas or comments and are inviolate. These follow my ideas. regarding the uniqueness of charge and gravity potential energies. The only absolutes on their list that do not require some comments are the conservation of charge, energy and momentum. Momentum is a form of mass-energy conservation.
Oddly, momentum can be thought of as a form of potential energy for it is usually applied to a piece of matter in uniform, rectilinear, motion. The matter may be kineticized, but its energy is inertially potential in nature, once on the move.
Richard Hull
Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
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Richard Hull
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Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Does anyone know what happens to a physicist who finds a snark
that turns out to be a boojum?
I do. He's never heard from again. See Lewis Carrol
dabbler.
that turns out to be a boojum?
I do. He's never heard from again. See Lewis Carrol
dabbler.
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
My view of science is based partially on Pierce’s pragmaticism. An idea is true in as far as it works. (Like Pierce, I prefer pragmaticism to pragmatism. I too feel William James diluted the concept of pragmatism with the idea that belief in God should be based on one’s level of ambition, that ambitious people should believe in God because they have the drive to follow morality based on the existence of God, while lazy people should be atheists, so they don’t have to worry about wasting energy trying to live up to God’s moral imperatives. That all lacks the intellectual rigor I expect in serious ideas). The standard model works better up to a point than most other models we have right now. I don’t necessarily believe that quarks, or even discrete particles inside nuclei do or don’t actually exist. I do believe the ideas work well enough to function as a cleaver way of bookkeeping on our part, so as to represent some semblance of conservation of matter and energy and to represent our limited understanding of what is going on.
It is likely that we will come up with a better theory when someone has an “Aha” or “Doh” experience. The classic Jamesian example involved the early chemists’ understanding of dichloromethane. When the molecule was drawn out, it was noted that you could have two forms of the chemical, one where the two chlorine atoms could be next to each other, or the two atoms of chlorine could be directly across from each other. Experimentally, only the form where the chlorines were next to each other seemed to exist. It was then realized that the two hydrogens and two chlorines corresponded to the four corners of a regular quadrahedron, so it was impossible for the chlorines not to be next to each other. It hadn’t occurred to people that the molecule would exist in any form other than the forms illustrated in the two-dimensional drawings with all the other atoms connected to the carbon and spaced 90 degrees apart, all on the same plane!
Rod
It is likely that we will come up with a better theory when someone has an “Aha” or “Doh” experience. The classic Jamesian example involved the early chemists’ understanding of dichloromethane. When the molecule was drawn out, it was noted that you could have two forms of the chemical, one where the two chlorine atoms could be next to each other, or the two atoms of chlorine could be directly across from each other. Experimentally, only the form where the chlorines were next to each other seemed to exist. It was then realized that the two hydrogens and two chlorines corresponded to the four corners of a regular quadrahedron, so it was impossible for the chlorines not to be next to each other. It hadn’t occurred to people that the molecule would exist in any form other than the forms illustrated in the two-dimensional drawings with all the other atoms connected to the carbon and spaced 90 degrees apart, all on the same plane!
Rod
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Richard Hull
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Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
The standard model started out real good. Once assumptions had to be made or inferences drawn from particle tracks that are not connected in reality, a self consistent model was built up around theorectical musings and it, obviously, serves the needs of physics or it wouldn't be there in the first place.
What is real and not real below the level of the primary, observed, charged particles is just so much well assembled, mathematically, self-consistent theoretical musing. Useful wheelwork will not issue from such material.
We may think we understand nature better, but using our findings will forever be beyond us, for the reality of those findings is in question and not directly accessable in any event scenario which can be worked to the benefit of man's daily existence.
We feed solely off of stored potential energies and this is very frightening. The best we can hope for is to identify unseen or unappreciated stores of this energy which can be released in some novel way.
We appear to be doomed to be energy parasites. The termites of the universe; gobbling up finished goods and leaving a trail of waste product and low grade heat behind in our wake. Yet, ever thinking how very clever we are.
The elegance is in the simplicity of the great mechanism where vast potential energies are naturally stored and unlocked and then restored. This is the great wheelwork of nature at its very core. All else is so many fleas and gnats and flesh that the engine grinds out and up, daily.
Richard Hull
What is real and not real below the level of the primary, observed, charged particles is just so much well assembled, mathematically, self-consistent theoretical musing. Useful wheelwork will not issue from such material.
We may think we understand nature better, but using our findings will forever be beyond us, for the reality of those findings is in question and not directly accessable in any event scenario which can be worked to the benefit of man's daily existence.
We feed solely off of stored potential energies and this is very frightening. The best we can hope for is to identify unseen or unappreciated stores of this energy which can be released in some novel way.
We appear to be doomed to be energy parasites. The termites of the universe; gobbling up finished goods and leaving a trail of waste product and low grade heat behind in our wake. Yet, ever thinking how very clever we are.
The elegance is in the simplicity of the great mechanism where vast potential energies are naturally stored and unlocked and then restored. This is the great wheelwork of nature at its very core. All else is so many fleas and gnats and flesh that the engine grinds out and up, daily.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Well, Richard. That one was worthy of Carl Sagan, although I doubt
he would ever have dreamed of casting doubts on the "standard
model."
The universe is what it is. It's up to us to find a way to cope because
it could care less one way or the other. The universe doesn't value
me, I value it, but I value it only insofar as it affords me a way to
continue my existence. Selfish of me, I know, and perhaps even a
wee bit cocky and egotistical.
Them's the breaks.
dabbler.
he would ever have dreamed of casting doubts on the "standard
model."
The universe is what it is. It's up to us to find a way to cope because
it could care less one way or the other. The universe doesn't value
me, I value it, but I value it only insofar as it affords me a way to
continue my existence. Selfish of me, I know, and perhaps even a
wee bit cocky and egotistical.
Them's the breaks.
dabbler.
-
Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15028
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
I'm with you at the bottom line. The art in this life is staying ahead of disaster and screwing life before it screws you. So many folks are like pinballs being shoved bumper to bumper and whining about it all. Taking life by the horns in a pro-active way is all that is needed to help smooth the ways as we slide through it. The intellectual pursuits are amusement for the wit and as such are just window dressing.
90% of life's apparent problems are true non-issues and will go away if one just observes and gently sidesteps them rather than do battle.
One could be the smartest man in the world and still starve to death or have his home foreclosed on. That is why only the physical realities in this life, both large and small, are all that concern me.
Nothing is selfish or arrogant or iconoclastic about trying to ease the path through life towards one's grave.
No one else is going to die for us; we have to do it ourselves. So it should be with the living of life. Each is the captain of his own fate.
Richard Hull
90% of life's apparent problems are true non-issues and will go away if one just observes and gently sidesteps them rather than do battle.
One could be the smartest man in the world and still starve to death or have his home foreclosed on. That is why only the physical realities in this life, both large and small, are all that concern me.
Nothing is selfish or arrogant or iconoclastic about trying to ease the path through life towards one's grave.
No one else is going to die for us; we have to do it ourselves. So it should be with the living of life. Each is the captain of his own fate.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Folks:
You have to take care of #1.
Waiting on other people will cause extinction.
So few people do the simple stuff that would guarantee survival.
People will call you dogent and oldfashioned if you take care of bussiness first.
But there will be flashlights that work ,checked fire alarms and food during rough spots..like a gotta have purchase on EBAY or power failure.
Just two days ago I showered by Kerosene Lantern due to a 8 hour blackout and cooked dinner on a Coleman stove,
Heaters that don't need electricity..ect.
Being pragmatic keeps the wolves at bay.
To heck with the Lemmings .. let them run away from life's Pain.
Rudyard Kippling said it best
" A coward dies a thousand deaths but the hero only one."
The problem with the standard model is there is no confirmation
step so the mind can run wild.
The SSC was suppost to be the physical check on the standard model but without the crucial data ,the standard model floundered.
It is like the NIF project,The GUT reasearch has turned into an employment boondoggle.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
You have to take care of #1.
Waiting on other people will cause extinction.
So few people do the simple stuff that would guarantee survival.
People will call you dogent and oldfashioned if you take care of bussiness first.
But there will be flashlights that work ,checked fire alarms and food during rough spots..like a gotta have purchase on EBAY or power failure.
Just two days ago I showered by Kerosene Lantern due to a 8 hour blackout and cooked dinner on a Coleman stove,
Heaters that don't need electricity..ect.
Being pragmatic keeps the wolves at bay.
To heck with the Lemmings .. let them run away from life's Pain.
Rudyard Kippling said it best
" A coward dies a thousand deaths but the hero only one."
The problem with the standard model is there is no confirmation
step so the mind can run wild.
The SSC was suppost to be the physical check on the standard model but without the crucial data ,the standard model floundered.
It is like the NIF project,The GUT reasearch has turned into an employment boondoggle.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Which brings up another mystery, by the way. Why in the bleeding
blue blazes did so many physicists come out against the super-
conducting super-collider after the land was purchased and
construction begun?
The government employed rampant use of eminent domain to
purchase that property and forced people to sell land that had been in
family hands for generations. Once all that was done...
dabbler.
blue blazes did so many physicists come out against the super-
conducting super-collider after the land was purchased and
construction begun?
The government employed rampant use of eminent domain to
purchase that property and forced people to sell land that had been in
family hands for generations. Once all that was done...
dabbler.
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Dabbler:
The problem was not the physists at all but the dumbasses in Congress. The so called "physists" that testified we didn't need it were just two guys from the Heritage Foundation. Our esteemed house leaders couldn't get past the math or the technology so these two guys set the agenda.. The two guys were bought and paid for by the NRC to sink the project so Bush the elder could do Gulf Storm #1 without busting PAGO. The SSC would have put us in the Cat Bird's seat on several technology fronts. The superconducting hardware design and experience would have kept us well ahead of the CERN boys for decades. But I guess there wasn't enough pork in the barrel to get the needed funds. They had already assembled the team , dug the hole ,built the first prototype magnets when the funding was cut and the hole filled.
I knew several proffesors who filed all the preliminary engineering in the shredder.
America has abandomed real research in favor of the "new" initiatives like a hamburger flipping robot for McDonalds and other such ilk.
That's why I only count on research I fund myself for fusion.
Most of the folks in Congress are science illiterates or worse yet party hacks.
The average congress person only made it through algebra and physical science in college....very darn few had any idea what was going on.
I had a thirty year education with the government research complete with scars.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
The problem was not the physists at all but the dumbasses in Congress. The so called "physists" that testified we didn't need it were just two guys from the Heritage Foundation. Our esteemed house leaders couldn't get past the math or the technology so these two guys set the agenda.. The two guys were bought and paid for by the NRC to sink the project so Bush the elder could do Gulf Storm #1 without busting PAGO. The SSC would have put us in the Cat Bird's seat on several technology fronts. The superconducting hardware design and experience would have kept us well ahead of the CERN boys for decades. But I guess there wasn't enough pork in the barrel to get the needed funds. They had already assembled the team , dug the hole ,built the first prototype magnets when the funding was cut and the hole filled.
I knew several proffesors who filed all the preliminary engineering in the shredder.
America has abandomed real research in favor of the "new" initiatives like a hamburger flipping robot for McDonalds and other such ilk.
That's why I only count on research I fund myself for fusion.
Most of the folks in Congress are science illiterates or worse yet party hacks.
The average congress person only made it through algebra and physical science in college....very darn few had any idea what was going on.
I had a thirty year education with the government research complete with scars.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Take nothing personal from this Larry because it is NOT aimed at you
or any other researcher. It is instead aimed at some of the silly things
we allow our government to do.
First off, I have a serious problem with the use of eminent domain in
most circumstances. The only semi-valid excuse that I can think of
for making use of it is in the case of national defense and even then
the government should be required to present an air-tight case for it.
In other words, I do not ask that they prove a negative. I demand that
they prove a positive need beyond shadow of doubt.
I find such practice doubly abhorrent when the government
continues, quite wrongly, to maintain ownership of vast tracts of land,
much of it in thinly populated areas. This project could have been
constructed in any number of places far less disruptive than the one
chosen.
It is, however, trebly awful when this much is done and people find
their property rights abrogated for entirely arbitrary reasons and then
we fail to finish the d****d job!
Now I find that "schools" such as MIT are trying to put together some
kind of international coalition to do the exact same job that the SCSC
would have done.
It only adds to my annoyance to think that we might well have already
discovered that the "standard model" is not so terribly standard
insofar as the universe is concerned had we followed through. The
damage was already done. They were already taking our tax money
to do the work. It isn't as though the actual budget was ever cut with
taxpayer's money and property being restored. The entire thing
turned into an unspeakable, immoral mess that accomplished nothing.
It was, thanks to foolishness from one end of the political spectrum to
the other, a COMPLETE and INEXCUSABLE waste.
For crying out loud, if we are to indulge ourselves in thievery, then by
all means let us stick our arm into the pickle jar right up to the elbow!
There is no point in taking half-steps. It fixes nothing and
accompishes less.
dabbler.
or any other researcher. It is instead aimed at some of the silly things
we allow our government to do.
First off, I have a serious problem with the use of eminent domain in
most circumstances. The only semi-valid excuse that I can think of
for making use of it is in the case of national defense and even then
the government should be required to present an air-tight case for it.
In other words, I do not ask that they prove a negative. I demand that
they prove a positive need beyond shadow of doubt.
I find such practice doubly abhorrent when the government
continues, quite wrongly, to maintain ownership of vast tracts of land,
much of it in thinly populated areas. This project could have been
constructed in any number of places far less disruptive than the one
chosen.
It is, however, trebly awful when this much is done and people find
their property rights abrogated for entirely arbitrary reasons and then
we fail to finish the d****d job!
Now I find that "schools" such as MIT are trying to put together some
kind of international coalition to do the exact same job that the SCSC
would have done.
It only adds to my annoyance to think that we might well have already
discovered that the "standard model" is not so terribly standard
insofar as the universe is concerned had we followed through. The
damage was already done. They were already taking our tax money
to do the work. It isn't as though the actual budget was ever cut with
taxpayer's money and property being restored. The entire thing
turned into an unspeakable, immoral mess that accomplished nothing.
It was, thanks to foolishness from one end of the political spectrum to
the other, a COMPLETE and INEXCUSABLE waste.
For crying out loud, if we are to indulge ourselves in thievery, then by
all means let us stick our arm into the pickle jar right up to the elbow!
There is no point in taking half-steps. It fixes nothing and
accompishes less.
dabbler.
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
My apologies for the double post, but here we go again!
The first link will give you the political context, the second link will
download the document discussed in the article.
dabbler
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 013903.htm
http://www.interactions.org/pdf/Quantum_Universe.pdf
The first link will give you the political context, the second link will
download the document discussed in the article.
dabbler
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 013903.htm
http://www.interactions.org/pdf/Quantum_Universe.pdf
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Dabbler:
I didn't take it personally but my friend of twenty years from Mesquite TX had to be hospitalized with a nervous breakdown after trying to remove his head from his shoulders with a shot gun. He got lucky the gun jammed.
But the committee in this paragraph is the two guys I mentioned in my last post.
The "funding agencies" (read the majority in Congress) asked their joint High Energy Physics Advisory Panel to appoint the task force and to charge it with explaining what particle physics can do, and what facilities it needs, to answer "the truly exciting scientific questions of this century." They later changed their tact and requested a Republican panel instead to explain it.
Btw Stanford did not profit from this move or the Physics Advisory Panel ... they clammed up after a project closure list was presented to it by the Congress. SSC was just the tip of the iceburg during their fund cutting adventures. Look at the list of cancellations the year after the SSC closed. It's an eye openner.
The project that was cancelled that I worked on as a tech was the orbital power sattilites.for military deployment.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
I didn't take it personally but my friend of twenty years from Mesquite TX had to be hospitalized with a nervous breakdown after trying to remove his head from his shoulders with a shot gun. He got lucky the gun jammed.
But the committee in this paragraph is the two guys I mentioned in my last post.
The "funding agencies" (read the majority in Congress) asked their joint High Energy Physics Advisory Panel to appoint the task force and to charge it with explaining what particle physics can do, and what facilities it needs, to answer "the truly exciting scientific questions of this century." They later changed their tact and requested a Republican panel instead to explain it.
Btw Stanford did not profit from this move or the Physics Advisory Panel ... they clammed up after a project closure list was presented to it by the Congress. SSC was just the tip of the iceburg during their fund cutting adventures. Look at the list of cancellations the year after the SSC closed. It's an eye openner.
The project that was cancelled that I worked on as a tech was the orbital power sattilites.for military deployment.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
You were working on powersats for SAC? Powersats?
Whatever on Earth were the silly buggers...never mind. I was about to
ask what they were thinking. One of the few truly stupid questions a
person can ask.
Of all the the things the government could gamble on that might have
well proven beneficial to everyone, powersats were the best all-round
bet. If Richard is right about fusion, they are still the best bet.
dabbler.
Whatever on Earth were the silly buggers...never mind. I was about to
ask what they were thinking. One of the few truly stupid questions a
person can ask.
Of all the the things the government could gamble on that might have
well proven beneficial to everyone, powersats were the best all-round
bet. If Richard is right about fusion, they are still the best bet.
dabbler.
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Dabbler:
Not SAC but one of it's major contractors...Aerojet General.
It was absorbed in Martin Marrietta many moons ago.
Which has been absorbed once again in Lockheed Martin.
The powersats were despritely needed to go to Mars.
The Mars Express is a modified powersat with ion drive.
Desert storm two has revived the need for power sats to power remotely controlled drones and the associated broadcast facilities needed for guidance transmittions.
Boeing is now in charge of the sattelite support and developement.
Lockheed Martin is in charge of reactor design.
The only change I see in the design is a pebble bed reactor instead of a fast reactor in sodium.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Not SAC but one of it's major contractors...Aerojet General.
It was absorbed in Martin Marrietta many moons ago.
Which has been absorbed once again in Lockheed Martin.
The powersats were despritely needed to go to Mars.
The Mars Express is a modified powersat with ion drive.
Desert storm two has revived the need for power sats to power remotely controlled drones and the associated broadcast facilities needed for guidance transmittions.
Boeing is now in charge of the sattelite support and developement.
Lockheed Martin is in charge of reactor design.
The only change I see in the design is a pebble bed reactor instead of a fast reactor in sodium.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
The last time I checked, NASA was considering a closed, Brayton
cycle plant using helium as a coolant. With an exit temp of something
2000 degC, I wouldn't want to be part of the program--not even on the
engineering side. It might be made to work, but oh, what an unholy
beast that is going to be.
dabbler.
cycle plant using helium as a coolant. With an exit temp of something
2000 degC, I wouldn't want to be part of the program--not even on the
engineering side. It might be made to work, but oh, what an unholy
beast that is going to be.
dabbler.
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Dabbler:
You had to do all sorts of crazy engineering on the powersats.
That's why I feel at home on the fusor.
The first powersat was the snap 8a.
It only delivered a kilowatt thermal and 400 watts electrical.
It was waste can sized
After 35 years and nearly 1.2 billion the unit now can manage 100 kw electrical,
The first was lauched in 1965 on an Atlas Centaur rocket.
The size and weight were the killer problems.
The new units will sit on top of a Titan Athena 2 with extra boosters.
The unit is about the size of a small rv.
It uses the brayton closed cycle with helium.
The unit has to run at 2000 degrees so the small radiators on the powersat can radiate the excess heat into space by radiation emission alone..
The Brayton cycle is the only cycle that works in zero gee.
Russian Topaz units are becoming availible that use cesium thermoionic generators on an ultra hot core.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
You had to do all sorts of crazy engineering on the powersats.
That's why I feel at home on the fusor.
The first powersat was the snap 8a.
It only delivered a kilowatt thermal and 400 watts electrical.
It was waste can sized
After 35 years and nearly 1.2 billion the unit now can manage 100 kw electrical,
The first was lauched in 1965 on an Atlas Centaur rocket.
The size and weight were the killer problems.
The new units will sit on top of a Titan Athena 2 with extra boosters.
The unit is about the size of a small rv.
It uses the brayton closed cycle with helium.
The unit has to run at 2000 degrees so the small radiators on the powersat can radiate the excess heat into space by radiation emission alone..
The Brayton cycle is the only cycle that works in zero gee.
Russian Topaz units are becoming availible that use cesium thermoionic generators on an ultra hot core.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Is the reason we are limited to a design based on the Brayton cycle
because we haven't figured out how to deal with NPSH problems in
freefall--excuse me--microgravity?
dabbler.
because we haven't figured out how to deal with NPSH problems in
freefall--excuse me--microgravity?
dabbler.
-
Adam Szendrey
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Just a quick question: why don't they use MHDs, combined with a turbine assembly, and to top the whole thing, they should use waste heat reclamation, to push efficiency above 70 % or so (just a guess). Btw this stuff could fit into a car, along with a suitable heat source (a hybrid reactor or a hydrogen burner, or something like that).
So they are planning (or using) to use gas cooled pebble beds (i assume they figured out a way to keep the "fuel balls" still
)? Well, actually that is good.
Or am i on the wrong track here?
Adam
So they are planning (or using) to use gas cooled pebble beds (i assume they figured out a way to keep the "fuel balls" still
)? Well, actually that is good.Or am i on the wrong track here?
Adam
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi Guys:
no liquids will work at high temps in microgravity with the exception of NAK alloy.
MHD requires too much initial energy to start.
This system must fit in 8 cubic feet.with all equipment + sheilding and must be under 3 tons.
Oh yeah ...it must be self starting and run unmanned for 20 years.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
no liquids will work at high temps in microgravity with the exception of NAK alloy.
MHD requires too much initial energy to start.
This system must fit in 8 cubic feet.with all equipment + sheilding and must be under 3 tons.
Oh yeah ...it must be self starting and run unmanned for 20 years.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
MARK-HARRISS
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:43 pm
- Real name:
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
I see some guy has patented a thermopile alloy that allows 18% electrical conversion efficiency now. They plan to run car's electrics off waste heat from the exhaust. I guess you could equal a solar cells efficiency with a flat black surface in the sun and one of these thermopiles, although it would be hard to radiate heat in space easily.
Mark H
Mark H
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Okay, I've been trying to dig up an answer to this question by going
through the stuff on NASA's site. After many hours of searching, I'm
still not clear on the problem.
For a small system, the Brayton cycle design doesn't strike me as
such a horror. It's when they start talking about scaling one up until
it's producing the same power as a Los Angeles Class sub that gives
me pause. I start wondering how on earth they propose to hang on to
helium coolant long enough to complete a long mission.
Why won't water work as a coolant? Is it because there are
difficulties with pumping it around? There should not be a problem
with the primary coolant loop because you never but never allow a
phase change in the primary loop. This suggests to me that they are
worried about condensate return to the boilers in the secondary loops
which is usually a problem with inadequate net positive suction head
at the pumps. Cavitation sets in and not only does the pump self-
destruct, but it fails to pump anything.
Surely, we are not worried that water will not absorb heat in
"microgravity", right?
dabbler.
PS. What is this fellow's name, Dave? Got a company name or URL?
through the stuff on NASA's site. After many hours of searching, I'm
still not clear on the problem.
For a small system, the Brayton cycle design doesn't strike me as
such a horror. It's when they start talking about scaling one up until
it's producing the same power as a Los Angeles Class sub that gives
me pause. I start wondering how on earth they propose to hang on to
helium coolant long enough to complete a long mission.
Why won't water work as a coolant? Is it because there are
difficulties with pumping it around? There should not be a problem
with the primary coolant loop because you never but never allow a
phase change in the primary loop. This suggests to me that they are
worried about condensate return to the boilers in the secondary loops
which is usually a problem with inadequate net positive suction head
at the pumps. Cavitation sets in and not only does the pump self-
destruct, but it fails to pump anything.
Surely, we are not worried that water will not absorb heat in
"microgravity", right?
dabbler.
PS. What is this fellow's name, Dave? Got a company name or URL?
-
Adam Szendrey
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
An MHD generator/turbine/waste heat reclamation system should fit into rather tight spaces. In my oppinion, anything can fit into small spaces if well designed ,and engineered.
An MHD system will indeed need power to start, but since it should work for decades with minimal maintanance, this initial startup should not be a problem. And an MHD generator has the enormous advantage of not having any moving parts in the generator itself.
For redundance an additinal MHD only backup system could be installed in case the main generator system (the secondary turbines are most likely to brake down) fails.
But if efficiency is not the greatest concern, but reliability is very important than a system with an MHD generator only, can be built. That means a minimal amount of moving parts, and in my book that spells reliability.
Since titanium is at hand, weight should not be a problem. The MHDG is likely to use superconducting coils instead of huge magnets, thus the weight is further reduced.
Is there any other, more efficient conversion method that has no moving parts ? The only weak spot i can think of is the coolant system for the e-magnets.
I'm a big fan of MHD technology , and thus i would like to see more appliactions. Or at least more activity on the research line.
Adam
An MHD system will indeed need power to start, but since it should work for decades with minimal maintanance, this initial startup should not be a problem. And an MHD generator has the enormous advantage of not having any moving parts in the generator itself.
For redundance an additinal MHD only backup system could be installed in case the main generator system (the secondary turbines are most likely to brake down) fails.
But if efficiency is not the greatest concern, but reliability is very important than a system with an MHD generator only, can be built. That means a minimal amount of moving parts, and in my book that spells reliability.
Since titanium is at hand, weight should not be a problem. The MHDG is likely to use superconducting coils instead of huge magnets, thus the weight is further reduced.
Is there any other, more efficient conversion method that has no moving parts ? The only weak spot i can think of is the coolant system for the e-magnets.
I'm a big fan of MHD technology , and thus i would like to see more appliactions. Or at least more activity on the research line.
Adam
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Hi dabbler:
Water is out in space systems due to the cyclical changes in temp. in orbit.
-150 c below zero in shade 150 c above in sunlight.
Nak has to be kept warm at all times or it will freeze solid.
We already have buit the land based 10 MW version of the Brayton cycle at the Fort Veraine Power plant.
The guy with the new alloy is Stan Ovshinsky of Ovonics fame.
His website is
http://www.ovonic.com
in Troy Michigan
Hi Adam:
you have to use an akyline ionizer in the gas stream
it will destroy the piping in less than ten years.
That has stopped MHD cold for even coal based MHD power plants.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Water is out in space systems due to the cyclical changes in temp. in orbit.
-150 c below zero in shade 150 c above in sunlight.
Nak has to be kept warm at all times or it will freeze solid.
We already have buit the land based 10 MW version of the Brayton cycle at the Fort Veraine Power plant.
The guy with the new alloy is Stan Ovshinsky of Ovonics fame.
His website is
http://www.ovonic.com
in Troy Michigan
Hi Adam:
you have to use an akyline ionizer in the gas stream
it will destroy the piping in less than ten years.
That has stopped MHD cold for even coal based MHD power plants.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
Adam Szendrey
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
I'm sure there has to be an alternative to that "destructive" ionizer material. Or there is none?
Or maybe such piping material that withstands it.
C'mon, material physics can solve so many problems nowdays.
Adam
Or maybe such piping material that withstands it.
C'mon, material physics can solve so many problems nowdays.
Adam
Re: Gobbledy-Goop - It's word soup
Larry, you have got to be kidding me. Is that really the reason?
dabbler.
dabbler.