According to this article, sonoluminescence is a dead end for fusion. Researchers determined that the bubble temperature is in the 15k-20K degrees
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2151215.stm
sonoluminescence a no go
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Richard Hull
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Re: sonoluminescence a no go
I note the article says that "calculations indicate" no fusion is possible. Of course this is a popular review and they can say what they want. However, Calculations do not an experiment make.
I will have to see the nature article for the particulars. Urbanna-Champaign is no slouch in fusion work and need to be listened to just as the original poisitors were.
It is amusing how the original authors had to suffer publication in "Science" concurrent with critical articles, apologies and a s--- storm of political end fighting, while the latest refutation cruised through peer review in near record time to be published in the prestigious, world class, "Nature"!
Interesting.
I still say that to any and all out there in the acedemic world Fusion means.... HOT......IT MEANS PLASMA....IT MEANS DOING IT THE WAY "I HAVE BEEN TRAINED THAT IT MUST BE DONE". This is with full respect to all authors in this issue. It is not a matter of simple bias or bull headedness. It is a coda, a mindset. Miley, Bockris, Miles, the Chubbs and a good many others seem to realize that the "my way or the highway" mindset will never do fusion. Unclouded heads need to prevail or it's tens of billions in the money and 50 more years of the same old crap. From project Sherwood to project Deadwood in only 100 years lashed to the mast of "real soon now".
Richard Hull
I will have to see the nature article for the particulars. Urbanna-Champaign is no slouch in fusion work and need to be listened to just as the original poisitors were.
It is amusing how the original authors had to suffer publication in "Science" concurrent with critical articles, apologies and a s--- storm of political end fighting, while the latest refutation cruised through peer review in near record time to be published in the prestigious, world class, "Nature"!
Interesting.
I still say that to any and all out there in the acedemic world Fusion means.... HOT......IT MEANS PLASMA....IT MEANS DOING IT THE WAY "I HAVE BEEN TRAINED THAT IT MUST BE DONE". This is with full respect to all authors in this issue. It is not a matter of simple bias or bull headedness. It is a coda, a mindset. Miley, Bockris, Miles, the Chubbs and a good many others seem to realize that the "my way or the highway" mindset will never do fusion. Unclouded heads need to prevail or it's tens of billions in the money and 50 more years of the same old crap. From project Sherwood to project Deadwood in only 100 years lashed to the mast of "real soon now".
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
guest
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
Their Temperature figures are really suspect here.
At the temps quoted no uv emision either.
Sonoluminescence makes a great uv source.
So I would say back to the drawing boards.
Like all pulse phenomenom the chances for screw ups are imense..... If you average the peak temp with average temps you will never reach fusion temps.
I'll bet they used standard measuring techniques all
averages over time(seconds) rather than peak temps in under a millisecond. I wouldn't declare it dead yet.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
At the temps quoted no uv emision either.
Sonoluminescence makes a great uv source.
So I would say back to the drawing boards.
Like all pulse phenomenom the chances for screw ups are imense..... If you average the peak temp with average temps you will never reach fusion temps.
I'll bet they used standard measuring techniques all
averages over time(seconds) rather than peak temps in under a millisecond. I wouldn't declare it dead yet.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
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guest
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
IMHO, I have my doubts whether or not if this research will pave the way to break-even fusion. It might produce fusion, but it appears to be pretty much black-art research. Its extremely difficult to make measurements,and I can't imagine any way to produce a commercial scale reactor using this method. I think at best, it will always remain a novelty. Perhaps some research will prove me wrong, but it seems unlikely.
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guest
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
At Los Alamos they conduct the sonoluminescence in a bath of liquid metal using very high powered ceramic
sound horns. Not all sono uses water. You can see
what you are doing in water. It is safer for beginners also. They use NAK as their fluid media. They intend to come up with a liquid eutechtec liquid based on lithium for a reactor driver and breader blanket. Yes it is a black art. All experimental work is done in the dark
... until it's tried it will stay in the dark.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
sound horns. Not all sono uses water. You can see
what you are doing in water. It is safer for beginners also. They use NAK as their fluid media. They intend to come up with a liquid eutechtec liquid based on lithium for a reactor driver and breader blanket. Yes it is a black art. All experimental work is done in the dark
... until it's tried it will stay in the dark.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
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Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15039
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
I tend to agree with Anonymous Guy.
Cold fusion....Sono Fusion, might indeed being do some sort of fusion, but at a level not suitable to lend itself of immediate use to man.
The key thing is they just might be doing fusion and perhaps outside the box of common understanding which, if shown to be the case, would put fuison research on its ear. This is why it is critical to pursue these issues inspite of criticism.
Some new understaning may come forth that lights the way to a whole new approach.
Richard Hull
Cold fusion....Sono Fusion, might indeed being do some sort of fusion, but at a level not suitable to lend itself of immediate use to man.
The key thing is they just might be doing fusion and perhaps outside the box of common understanding which, if shown to be the case, would put fuison research on its ear. This is why it is critical to pursue these issues inspite of criticism.
Some new understaning may come forth that lights the way to a whole new approach.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
I wouldn't trust any "calculations" such as shown in that article. The US fusion physics community is addicted to funding for their big machines and will chase, and kill off, any science that provides a cheaper alternative. Just read the history of how they killed (or starved out) Farnsworth-type fusion, or Cold Fusion, or Muon-catalyzed fusion... Now they are doing the same to Sono-Fusion.
Once you catch on to the "game" it's easy to see. In my main life I'm a CEO and a lawyer, with a fair dose of politics on the side. I see this sort of scam-artistry every day. US science is awash in it.
Notice that none of these articles attacking sono fusion have yet explained how sonoluminesence produces pico-second light pulses...something that "according to calculations" is quite impossible for anything other than a nuclear process. Just as the articles attacking Cold Fusion were never willing to explain how some of the experiments were creating substantial amounts of Tritium (and are still to this day)
So again, these types of calculations are wholly and completely useless, from a scientific viewpoint. Their only purpose is political.
Regarding "black arts" -- of course this may be true. All fusion is a black art. So what? To pretend that you can "do a calculation" now, and determine which of the many paths is "more likely" to pan out is ludricrous. Nobody can predict that.
Instead, I would invite people to do a simple bit of cost-benefits-odds of success analysis.
Both the Sono and Cold fusion techniques allow enormously more science to be conducted "per dollar" than hot fusion. Hot Fusion research burns up spectacular amounts of money and has made demonstrably little progress in 50 years.
If we diverted all that money into Sono Fusion or Cold Fusion or Muon Catalyzed Fusion or FARNSWORTH Fusion, we'd get a MUCH bigger bang for the buck.
For the price of one Tokamak we could have thousands of bright inventive grad students pushing the boundaries in other directions. Any smart high-tech CEO could make that decision in a microsecond. It's a no-brainer. Drop the "proven failure" that is breaking the bank (Hot Fusion) and redivert resources to other, cheaper alternatives.
But of course, that will never happen in the US because entrenched groups want to keep their salaries intact.
Finally, if Sono-Fusion does work, or if Cold Fusion works (read the mass of cold fusion papers, and it seems pretty likely that it does) then AT THE VERY LEAST this shows that the existing understanding of Fusion physics has some holes in it. How can we EVER expect to perform hot fusion when there are still un-resolved holes in the theory?
Again, any responsible decision-maker should pursue Sono and Cold fusion vigorously, to make sure that there are NO unknowns in the science.
Instead we see the fusion physics community AVOIDING understanding sono or cold fusion. They go out of their way to ignore novel work. That is not the actions of responsible scientists. Those are the actions of people with something to hide.
US Physics = The Enron of Science.
My opinion.
Once you catch on to the "game" it's easy to see. In my main life I'm a CEO and a lawyer, with a fair dose of politics on the side. I see this sort of scam-artistry every day. US science is awash in it.
Notice that none of these articles attacking sono fusion have yet explained how sonoluminesence produces pico-second light pulses...something that "according to calculations" is quite impossible for anything other than a nuclear process. Just as the articles attacking Cold Fusion were never willing to explain how some of the experiments were creating substantial amounts of Tritium (and are still to this day)
So again, these types of calculations are wholly and completely useless, from a scientific viewpoint. Their only purpose is political.
Regarding "black arts" -- of course this may be true. All fusion is a black art. So what? To pretend that you can "do a calculation" now, and determine which of the many paths is "more likely" to pan out is ludricrous. Nobody can predict that.
Instead, I would invite people to do a simple bit of cost-benefits-odds of success analysis.
Both the Sono and Cold fusion techniques allow enormously more science to be conducted "per dollar" than hot fusion. Hot Fusion research burns up spectacular amounts of money and has made demonstrably little progress in 50 years.
If we diverted all that money into Sono Fusion or Cold Fusion or Muon Catalyzed Fusion or FARNSWORTH Fusion, we'd get a MUCH bigger bang for the buck.
For the price of one Tokamak we could have thousands of bright inventive grad students pushing the boundaries in other directions. Any smart high-tech CEO could make that decision in a microsecond. It's a no-brainer. Drop the "proven failure" that is breaking the bank (Hot Fusion) and redivert resources to other, cheaper alternatives.
But of course, that will never happen in the US because entrenched groups want to keep their salaries intact.
Finally, if Sono-Fusion does work, or if Cold Fusion works (read the mass of cold fusion papers, and it seems pretty likely that it does) then AT THE VERY LEAST this shows that the existing understanding of Fusion physics has some holes in it. How can we EVER expect to perform hot fusion when there are still un-resolved holes in the theory?
Again, any responsible decision-maker should pursue Sono and Cold fusion vigorously, to make sure that there are NO unknowns in the science.
Instead we see the fusion physics community AVOIDING understanding sono or cold fusion. They go out of their way to ignore novel work. That is not the actions of responsible scientists. Those are the actions of people with something to hide.
US Physics = The Enron of Science.
My opinion.
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
I re-read this again. OK, yes I was ranting and raving a bit. My apologies!
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Richard Hull
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- Posts: 15039
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
Ranting and raving in the quest for truth or to shake the non-hackers out of the trees is always held in high regard.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
guest
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
Some times all you can do is shake your fist at the sky and rant.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
Re: sonoluminescence a no go
A good rant is necessary from time to time... no need for anyone to apologize, here, in my opinion.
As to sonolumiesence itself. To produce photons, requires only that some local energy levels around the cavitating bubbles, exceed the energy of visible photons - i.e. a couple of electron volts. Since you can do this with triboelectricity by cracking a peppermint candy with your teeth, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a piezo-like process could be at work in the bubbles.
The light pulse duration is a measure of the size of the region involved in the pulse generation.. as in very small.
Internal partial discharges in dielectrics can occur in small voids in the 10 -50 micron size range. The risetime of the tiny current pulses exceeds the risetime of the fastest scopes to date. It is thought to be in the 10 -^12 to 10 -^15 second range.
Dave Cooper
As to sonolumiesence itself. To produce photons, requires only that some local energy levels around the cavitating bubbles, exceed the energy of visible photons - i.e. a couple of electron volts. Since you can do this with triboelectricity by cracking a peppermint candy with your teeth, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a piezo-like process could be at work in the bubbles.
The light pulse duration is a measure of the size of the region involved in the pulse generation.. as in very small.
Internal partial discharges in dielectrics can occur in small voids in the 10 -50 micron size range. The risetime of the tiny current pulses exceeds the risetime of the fastest scopes to date. It is thought to be in the 10 -^12 to 10 -^15 second range.
Dave Cooper