Trinitite- activity is zero?

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hjerald1
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by hjerald1 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:05 pm

Some more details of the Fat Man design can be found here. Also a reference to Atom Bombs by Coster-Mullen.
http://www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwf ... #nfaq8.1.2

Jerry

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Richard Hull
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:11 pm

I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.

I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.

Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.

The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by FJS » Wed May 26, 2010 1:28 pm

I came across a book on Trinitite that is to be updated . The author is Bill Kolb. Can anyone update me as to its availability, ISBN so thjat I can purchase .

Thank You,

Frank J. Spitz
Richard Hull wrote:
> I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.
>
> I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.
>
> Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.
>
> The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.
>
> Richard Hull

Richard Hull wrote:
> I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.
>
> I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.
>
> Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.
>
> The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.
>
> Richard Hull

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull » Wed May 26, 2010 4:22 pm

This got wedged into an old post somehow...........

The book on Trinitite, by my good Friend and fellow U mineroligist pal, Bill Kolb, has not been updated or re-released yet.

The first pass of the to-be-finished work is what you have and was a hyper limited release! Under 50 copies, mostly to close friends and associates, plus a few who begged and pleaded. At all events, that first lirttle pre-release is a rarity, consider yourself lucky to have it. It is shaping up, in its final form, to be the definitive work on the subject. No ISBN as of now.

Bill's released book "Living with Radiation, The First 100 Years" is in constant update and a self published effort. I have virtually every iteration of it. About 7 volumes.

FLASH! ..........

I just talked with Bill. Both his books are self published only. They will never have an ISBN unless he is approached by a formal publisher. He is not seeking one either.

By self publishing and publishing in a "print-on-demand" manner, he warrants that at any any instant in time, the buyer gets the most updated iteration.

The Trinitite book you hold is one of only 14 ever printed!! I have one, of course.

Bill has informed me that a massively expanded version should be available within a year as he has to get a number of permission statements to add articles in his book that were written as reports by others on the subject.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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FYI: activity is not zero...

Post by myID » Wed May 26, 2010 10:20 pm

Hi-

I just checked few days ago with my TBM-3S (pretty sensitive) and it definitely is somewhat active. So I have a nice piece of history. I will measure it with my MCA one day but before this I will have to build a "lead castle"... one day....

Kind regards
Roman

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by FJS » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:14 pm

Mr. Hull,

Thank you for the information. I actually do not have the first trinitite book. I only heard about it from Mr. Derik Bowers.

However, as soon as this book is ready, count me among those who will appreciate his efforts. The hyper-rarety is probably why I could not find ANY source of this book. Self publish is fine but a better desemination would be thru a major publication house. But...whichever avenue is chosen, I will delo with to get a book.

Can you provide me with his e-mail adddress (preferred avenue of contact) and.or phone number so that I can be informed when it is due out.

Thank you,

Frank Spitz

And yes, it was an old thread I piped into but it was my only option and I am glad you replied. Now to get some trinitite pearls and assorted colors beyond the green.

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by David D Speck MD » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:21 pm

Richard,

Have you tried counting any of your specimens in an alpha spectrometer, under reduced atmospheric pressure for maximum alpha sensitivity?

Dave

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:08 pm

I have used the alpha spec as well as the gamma spec. The alpha activity is low and is characteristic of Uranium only. Again, 90 percent of the mica windowed GM activity is beta from the longer lived isotopes and mostly the Cs137. The best gamma signature is due to the Am241.

Bill Kolb and Jon Rosenstiel have done far better gamma spec work and identified Neptunium, Europium and others. Bill's upcoming re-release of the Trinitite work will be the magnum opus on the material.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Trinity 3 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:34 pm

Is there any final date for the new book on Trinitite ?

Thank you,

Frank Spitz
Richard Hull wrote:
> I have used the alpha spec as well as the gamma spec. The alpha activity is low and is characteristic of Uranium only. Again, 90 percent of the mica windowed GM activity is beta from the longer lived isotopes and mostly the Cs137. The best gamma signature is due to the Am241.
>
> Bill Kolb and Jon Rosenstiel have done far better gamma spec work and identified Neptunium, Europium and others. Bill's upcoming re-release of the Trinitite work will be the magnum opus on the material.
>
> Richard Hull

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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Well, Like fusion, "real soon now"

I just talked with Bill and he has just finished the new edition of his "Living With Radiation - The First Hundred Years".

He noted that now he is going to get very serious about "Trinitite". His book will be both technical and highly historical in nature. He notes that he has about 2000 pages of data and reports to cull through. In short, he estimates this time next year for the release of the book on Trinitite.

Among the great gems to be found in his book is the story of Ralph Pray. Most who have come to the HEAS event in the past have heard Bill give his well done talk on Ralph Pray and his Trinitite experience.

Bill's book will be the definitive reference on the subject to be sure, just as his Living with radiation is a one of a kind treasure trove.


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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