Radon detector for under $100.00

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Tom Dressel
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Tom Dressel »

Well, 72 hrs of sucking under the slab has pulled the Radon level in the basement down from 38.5 to 0.9 pCi//liter. Thats a 97% Reduction.

Remediation works!

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richnormand
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by richnormand »

Looks like that little detector was agood investment afterall!
Tom Dressel
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Tom Dressel »

Yes, it was a good investment.

A frend of mine who has a cabin on the north shore of Lake Superior, bought a series III detector and found Radon levels at 177 pCi/ liter in his basement.

I can't believe the apathy amoung my collegues ( all physicians ) with respect to Radon. After my experience, I feel quite strongly that a question that every primary care MD should ask their patient during the annual physical is: Do you know what the Radon levels in your home and work place are?

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Richard Hull
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Richard Hull »

Supposedly...............and I say, supposedly. Radon is second only to smoking as a causitive agent in lung cancer.

Whether this is an absolute fact or not is highly suspect. For I fear much of the data is based on old data where the population smoked a lot and others got a lot of second hand smoke plus there were high levels of other toxins. I am concerned that these elements could not be isolated enough to point 100% at radon as a causitive agent.

The only test I would ever accept is a control group that was 100% non-smoking and 100% not exposed to other chemical fumes in the work place being known to live in a highly radon loaded environment show increased cancer against a similar group in a known low radon environment.

Smokers vs. non-smokers is a no brainer, as the smokers willingly and gleefully exposed themselves every waking moment by setting tobacco on fire and sucking the burnt gases deeply into their lungs for that satisfying hit of pleasure.

No one would do that with radon and so such pronouncements such as "second only to smoking" for radon is highly suspect in my mind.

Still, erring on on the side of caution is also a no brainer. A 30+ pCi/l load is certainly not a happy living environment if it can easily be pulled back to 3 PCi/l. However, anything over 100 is a place you don't want to be for protracted periods. I bet a nickel to a doughnut that 10 p/Ci/l is just fine in a living space.

Some of the old U mines had daily working environments of 4000pCi/l! That is not a nice workplace. Of course 80% of those old miners smoked like chimneys, too! I was alive in the 40's and 50's and there were very few grown men who did not smoke. It was relatively rare to see a woman smoke then, but it became a common sight by the late 60's. Most U mines by the late 50's were well ventilated. I have an image taken deep inside the Mi Vida, where they have mined out a huge room (~40X40 feet?) and it is a formal welding and machine shop used to maintain the ore moving machinery. There are workers busy there at lathes and welding rigs. I don't think I would want to work in that shop, I don't care how well they ventilated it. I have seen movies of small mine operataions with the rock dust thick in the air. No one had on a respirator! How many radon induced cancers were logged here instead of being chalked up to direct dust inhalation or silicosis?

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
richnormand
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by richnormand »

Here is another experiment for people with this neat detector. Usually it reads a constant 1 pC/l in the basement. However since radon comes from under the concrete slab I put the detector under a large beaker and over the basement drain. Here is the result after one week. now, since the drain has a water trap (and no smells) I have to assume this is coming from cracks around the fitting.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Richard Hull »

Good ole radon! It is for all God's chilluns. It is everywhere like any good boogie man.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jon Rosenstiel
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

I've got a 12' x 12' fairly well sealed-up storage shed in the corner of my backyard in which I keep my small supply of radioactives. (2 to 4 pounds of uranium ore and a few warbird instruments). My series 3 detector indicated around 9.5 pCi/l while in the storage shed.

I removed the radioactives from the shed and ventilated it for 1.5 hours using a medium sized fan. I reset the series 3 and closed up the shed. Two weeks later the indicated radon level was 1.9 pCi/l.

I then returned the radioactives to their place on the shelf and reset the series 3. Four days later the radon level was back up to 9.5 pCi/l.

I was stunned that my rather small stash of radioactives would affect the radon level that dramatically! I suppose a contributing factor is that the shed is fairly well sealed and is accessed only occasionally.

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richnormand
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by richnormand »

Interesting Jon.

I found similar effects in my basement.

You can look at my previous posts in this thread putting the detector in the sample box. No surprises there, up up, up and up. I now have the radium needles in a sealed jar.

A next post was with a beaker over the basement drain. Still no surprises there with high reading.

I then moved the detector outside (reading was 0, bear in mind I have the series 2 that does not read decimals and does the rounding the wrong way).

Back to the basement but in the living space. Three weeks later, it was at 3. Opened the basement windows and see, remember it is summer and the second floor windows are opened for ventilation. In effect, there seems that there is a vacuum created in the basement by the top floor venting the basement air where the cold air is. Therefore, I opened the basement windows and the reading went back down to one. I tried this scenario several times over the summer weeks with similar results. The radon reading will go back up on cool weeks when the ventilation is not as good.

Looks like the solution for your situation is to get better ventilation in your shed and seal the sources and open them outside.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Richard Hull »

Outside storage sheds are the ideal place for your U-rock mineral collections, warbird instruments and the like. There is no real hassle with even a 50-100pCi/l reading in these spaces.

A few lungfulls of this air is no big deal at all, of course. When I need the ole' lawn mower, I just go throw the doors open and walk away for a few minutes (talk to the nice lookin' babe who just moved in next door or sumpthin' like that.)

It realy only takes about 3.85X5 = ~19 days to get 98% all that radon back into the shed. Exponential growth........ain't it great? Well maybe in everything except kids.

It is good to remember that even massive lung loads to the tune of 1000pCi/l of radon are fine as long as you are just passin' thru. If one does the math, 1000pCi is 1 nCi and that means a mere 37bequerels/liter of air or 37 daughter product nuclei created per second in a lungfull of this rad-air. Also, remember that with each lung load, you exhale virtually 100% of the radon and the 37 daughter nuclei. It is that .00001% of product that remains over tens of thousands of lung loads that adds up in a living or work space. So 1000pCi/l is nothing to fear unless you are in it for a significant period of time.

The radon numbers game can be a fear factor or a scientific tool. It is important to do the calcs to get a clear picture of what the numbers mean rather than freak out due to the vast difference between the government's 4pCi/l spec for living spaces and a simple 400pCi/l U-mine that you are just pokin' yer head in for a few minutes.

Note and Warning: Some mines that are abandoned and have no forced air ventilation, as when they were in full operation, can easily go to 1 million pCi/liter!!! A few minutes in such a mine will leave you, your lungs and clothing radioactive with daughters. After a couple of hours outside, it will all be decayed away, but your lungs will have a very microscopic load of 27 year half life radio lead in them.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jon Rosenstiel
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

Well put, Richard.

When (or if) I ever make it to your place I'd appreciate it if you would point out "the nice lookin' babe next door". ;) ;)

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Richard Hull
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Re: Radon detector for under $100.00

Post by Richard Hull »

Positron decay is found only in low z- elements where un-natural neutron irradiation is used to blast normal matter leaving it in an un-worldly state. There are no true long half-lived (10 year + ), positron emitters. Such matter seems an abomination to nature, therfore, she gives it little time in the universe.

Regular beta emitters can have very long half lives, though not traditionally epochal. Beta emitters of both types are all about neutron-proton balance within a nucleus. It seems that natural inter nuclear neutron decay is a much more leisurely process than pair production via positron emission which usually proceeds with some eager dispatch and only in low Z stuff.

It is important to remember that the proton building block for the neutron was already there in the nucleus. Pair production ocurred within the excited nucleus in such a manner that the proton-electron formed a neutron and the the positive charge lost to the nucleus as, presented to the universe, flew off in the postiron. the postiron is doomed of course and the mass balances as it is destroyed. It's positive charge disappears as well, BUT, the postive charge is retained by the proton in the nucleus which is now locked down in the newly created neutron.

Charge and mass are balanced for all FUTURE nuclear reactions within the nucleus. Mass defect energy is used up or stored in these processes according to e=mc^2. No real NET particulate mass or charge is created once the short period exchange process is over. Mass defect is juggled and played with however. Mass defect is a mass like item, but neither particulate in nautre or charged.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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