Source for Uranium Metal?

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Brian McDermott
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Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Brian McDermott »

In light of Carl's recent post regarding the measurement of SF and neutron multplication in Uranium, I was wondering where one would actually go about getting a reasonably pure and concentrated sample of Uranium in more than single-gram quantities.

The NRC allows one to hold up to 15 lbs of natural or depleted Uranium Metal or salts "for scientific or educational purposes" without specific licensing requirements. My question is, where does one go about getting Uranium metal or salts? I know it exists in gamma ray collimators and aircraft counterweights, but there aren't any obvious sources for those either. United Nuclear has the tiny sample chunks, but those are geared more towards element collectors and less towards people doing experiments.
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Carl Willis
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Carl Willis »

Hi Brian,

You're looking at an uphill battle. There just aren't that many popular uses for uranium or its compounds that make it available routinely.

I have purchased some pieces from United Nuclear, when they had the big 13 g chunks available. This is depleted uranium.

The Victoreen 470 ion chambers (noted for their 'dagged styrofoam coffee cup air-equivalent chamber) have a test source on the front of the protective cover that has about half a gram of natural uranium metal foil. It's a reason I go after broken 470s.

MV Laboratories, Inc. sold me and a friend some (depleted) U308 last year of 99.99% chemical purity for about $5 a gram, a pretty good price. I don't know of any other suppliers right now who are doing that as far as any old member of the public is concerned. (Interesting aside: this compound when pure is nearly black, but a little water of hydration and you get the familiar yellow-orange "yellow cake.")

In those wonderful times before the whole debacle following 9/11, I remember having a friendly conversation on the phone with someone at Manufacturing Sciences Corp. in Oak Ridge about buying a DU plate. My problem back then was that I was too poor to afford it and my parents were likely to be skeptical about its safety and value in the home. I even balked at the FedEx hazmat airbill quote, which was like $50. So I forgot about it and so did they. Of course, 9/11 came.... Practically every day I kick myself for this lapse of sound judgment and foresight.

I've personally seen a large DU cylinder (apparently used in an inertial guidance device), recovered from surplus by a good acquaintance out in New Mexico. A find like that is a real blessing.

Certainly you've got Bill Kolb's book. It has a pretty exhaustive review of other uranium resources.

Best regards,
Carl
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Roberto Ferrari
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Brian,

I used to buy in antiquarians shops, from old pharmacies or chemical labs, natural Uranium salts, as Uranium nitrate, acetate, uranyl-acetate, etc.
Roberto
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Richard Hull
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

Carl is correct.

All of the old chemical firms used to offer crude U turnings as late as 2001 for ~$40.00 per gram. U as the oxide is currently on the market for 38.00/lb but you can't get any of it...PERIOD.

Surplus stuff with U in it is just not out there anymore.

Knee jerk regulations and paranoia coupled with public perception has pretty much killed the experimenter's hands on imperative and the open policy to amateur experimentation so brilliantly fostered under "Atoms For Peace" in my youth.

Good luck in your quest. If you should find a source, and they know exactly what they have, they will squeeze your private parts of every dollar for just a few grams. To do spontaneous fission replication work with ease, you would need a kg or more of DU.

U's big value is in a stable check source for most of us. A nice U ore rock sample is often enough.

The metal is a whole new ball game.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by 3l »

Hi Folks:

Under Homeboy security ,I doubt any u metal could be bought
over a 10 gram sample any more. Thorium metal is deamed harmless it could be purchased with out too much fuss.

Processing u salts into metal is flat against the law,but thorium is in a grey area so far. Thorium metal would work with adjustments in multiplication experiments. Fast neutrons only.

Happy Fusoring!
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Richard Hull
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

Thorium metal is the ultimate no-no! Thorium metal sales ended with all chem companies 10 years before they stopped U metal sales! You are not allowed to hold ANY Thorium metal under any regs. That is ZERO!

Thorium oxide mantles , while no longer made, can be found NOS on e-bay..... But that ain't th' metal. I never understood the government's reaction to Th metal being an ultimate no-no.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Wilfried Heil
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Wilfried Heil »

What about thoriated Tungsten rods for welding (with a few percent of Thorium)? Are these available in the US? In Europe we have the choice of thoriated or Tungsten/Lanthanum welding sticks, both of which are radioactive, incidentally.
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Brian McDermott
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Brian McDermott »

Are the check sources on the sides of the CDV-700 made of the same uranium foil as well?
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Q »

as i understand it, it is very illegal to do anything with your ore samples other than look at them and listen to the hum of a counter.
this is to bad; i've recently aquired an excellent book regarding radiochemestry and half the book deals with ways to extract specific isotopes.
...not that i really want to try doing this, but the information is an excellent resource.

Q
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Hi Q,
I was just reading a paper about a radiochemical procedure to determine U-235 content, based in both U235/U238 daughters.
As far as I know in my country is still legal to do these experiments.
Roberto
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Carl Willis »

Here's what the Man says:

10 CFR 40.13 (b) Any person is exempt from the regulations in this part and from the requirements for a license set forth in section 62 of the act to the extent that such person receives, possesses, uses, or transfers unrefined and unprocessed ore containing source material; provided, that, except as authorized in a specific license, such person SHALL NOT REFINE OR PROCESS SUCH ORE.

10 CFR 40.4 Unrefined and unprocessed ore means ore in its natural form prior to any processing, such as grinding, roasting or beneficiating, or refining.

10 CFR 40.22 (a) A general license is hereby issued authorizing commercial and industrial firms, research, educational and medical institutions and Federal, State and local government agencies to use and transfer not more than fifteen (15) pounds of source material at any one time for research, development, educational, commercial or operational purposes. A person authorized to use or transfer source material, pursuant to this general license, may not receive more than a total of 150 pounds of source material in any one calendar year.



Brian's right about the conventional understanding of these laws in our community. However, a strict-constructionist reading may allow for one to possess a quantity of uranium ore having uranium content less than or equal to the 15-lb bag limit, and refine or process it under the restrictions of the General License of 10 CFR 40.22 (a)...provided one's own state, municipality, and landlord don't get bent out of shape over it either. If one claims to be a General Licensee, you are also conveniently opted-out of requirements to maintain a health-physics program BUT you may still have to maintain records and are still beholden to the NRC to not cause contamination or excessive doses to people and that sort of thing. I think this interpretation allows for non-specifically licensed folks to do such things as analytical chemistry, ore assays, and limited refining and processing (but not enrichment). Unless incorporated or otherwise registered as a business, an individual must be prepared to make the case through semantics that he himself is a "research institution."

I'm not about to go ahead and do these things and flaunt it in public though. An amateur scientist should not trust in his skills as an amateur lawyer, unless he's down with a little vacation at Guantanamo.

-Carl
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Todd Massure
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Todd Massure »

I understand that using depleted uranium slugs was approved for use on domestic military shooting ranges. I don't know if it would be possible to get on to one of those ranges, but I imagine someone with a decent detector could gather quite a few specimens, and possibly even combine them into a larger sample.
I feel kind of weird even talking about this stuff in the post 9/11 world we live in. Ever get that creepy feeling like someone is watching you? I think I just got the internet version.

Todd
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

To Wilfried...........Thorium in thorium welding rods is NOT thorium metal.... it is 98-99% tungsten metal. You may not possess Thorium metal, the element. Licensed thorium bearing materials (lens, mantles, welding rods, etc.), are fine. The content of these item is limited to a very tiny amount mixed in with a large mass of something else.

Q is wise to obtain old books. The information is one of a kind and one day will be well buried among these old ancient tomes forever. The good experimenter will always seek out knowledge.

Carl gives all the legal data and sage advise regarding not becoming your own lawyer.

You can obtain up to 150 lbs of ore a year and make a rock garden with the stuff or pile it up on your lawn. But don't try and process it in any manner. Just 'cause the feds are out of the picture doesn't mean your state, county or city authorities like you or what you are doing. The closer you get to home the more rabid, knee jerk and arbitrary the rules become. Ultimately the rules are what the authorities, who ever they are and in what ever circumstance, say they are.

Depleted uranium metal is legal to own and hold in any number of forms PROVIDED it is in the form of a licensed, manufacturered good and is clearly marked by that manufacturer with "Uranium" stamped into the metal. Bill Kolb's book and the federal regs state this.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Wilfried Heil »

Aha. By the same semantics, my Tritium watch isn´t considered radioactive. If it were, it would be banned. It just depends on from which side you look at it. You may be allowed to pray while you´re smoking, but not to smoke while you pray.
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

By definition though, your watch contains absolutely pure, isotopic, elemental, Tritium.

Welding rods contain traces of thorium. Per unit mass, more elemental thorium is contained in lamp mantles or monazite sand in stream beds. No pure thorium metal is for sale, by law.

Pure thorium metal is very abundant, it is easy to make and very, very inexpensive. It is mildly radioactive. (very low specific activity) You can't have any pure stuff by law. No product containing pure thorium is allowed to be manufactured.

Pure tritium is difficult to make (needs a nuclear reactor to make in saleable quantities), difficult to separate, biologically dangerous per unit mass and highly radioactive, (very high specific activity). Tritium is extremely expensive, yet it is easily available in pure form in many open market products.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Q »

so, is there a reason why thorium metal has been added to the non-obtanium list? or is it yet another example of regulation without reason?

Q
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Richard Hull
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

I am sure it is regs, without reason, coupled with the obvious question......... What product could you imagine being produced better, cheaper, more useful or longer lasting using pure Thorium metal over any other non-radioactive metal?

I can't think of a thing.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Wilfried Heil »

I just checked www.goodfellow.com which does offer Thorium and Uranium for research use in small foils and in wire form, though at exorbitant prices. The cost alone would prevent the accumulation of strategic quantities, with no further regulation required.

It appears that just about anything can be had in pure and solid form, for a knowledgeable experimenter, with a suitable lab, and a plausible need for the material.

Some natural alpha emitters such as Thorium and Uranium are regulated, to a different extent depending on the quantity and use. Others like Lanthanum and Platinum are freely available.

If I were to repeat the sonofusion experiments, I´d improvise on the alpha emitter or use one of those which are easily available.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Richard Hull »

All of the suppliers here no longer carry radioactive chemicals or elements. They are deferring such requests to CERAC who still sells both U and Th at about $40.00/gram. Cerac demands that you have an NRC laboratory use certificate before they will sell to you even at the outrageous prices.

Again, the current price for uranium in the open market is $38.00/ lb (~454 grams). This is for the oxide with 1lb of contained elemental U in it. I was unable to locate any quote on spot Thorium prices on the open market as it is not traded publicly as Uranium is.

It is a case where the stuff is very cheap, but unobtainable within the public sector.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by 3l »

Hi Richard:

Glad to see the juices still flowing.
The post is word for word what the material hazard program spat out when I was applying for my Phd Work.

Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by HighVoltageFox »

Well.. I have found a very detailed discription of how to extract uranium, from a uranium supplier/manufacturer.
I have done this and will post the page as soon as I refind it, I also emailed them and they said that it was relitivly safe except the methanol solvent used. The only problem is you need a lot of ground up ore to extract very much uranium.
Andrew
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by Carl Willis »

Uranium metal itself is never an intermediate in the industrial refining of ores. The easiest way to make it on a small scale is by reducing its tetrafluoride with calcium shavings in a crucible under argon or other inert gas. It's darn-near impossible to make a nice solid hunk of metal through this process, however--it comes out spongy or granular, in perfect form to catch on fire as soon as it gets out in the air. Last point bears repeating: you are making a pyrophoric metal foam that, chances are, is going to burn with significant repercussions to the breathability of the local air supply!

Some folks have managed to get this reaction to work. Maybe they use magnesium instead of calcium? Maybe they have good temperature control? Anyway, the Ohio Department of Health now owns the fruits of one gentleman's labors: a spongy black blob that could fit in a small Dixie cup. I don't know the whole story of who cooked this up or why, but I have personally seen this item.

Chemically extracting uranium out of its ores, where it is present with many other elements including rare earths, usually is pretty involved--that is, if you aspire to any degree of purity. In the lab, a multi-stage aqueous-organic solvent extraction of the "Purex" type using uranyl nitrate and tributylphosphate is likely to work well. This would entail dissolving uranium ore in strong nitric acid and then separating into an organic phase made up of tributylphosphate in kerosene. Following several back-and-forths between an acid / aqueous phase and organic, the worker who wants to go on and make U metal would precipitate the final uranyl salt solution as U(IV) fluoride by adding HF. The mixture of nitric acid and kerosene during extraction is highly explosive. If anything goes wrong, the consequences would be severe. Even a small boo-boo is likely to explosively disperse your highly corrosive (and rather radioactive) leachate into the far corners of carpets, floorboards, drywall, etc. and the air. You'll never clean it up!

There's nothing casual, safety-wise, about these processes. If only they were as safe as using a methanol solvent!

-Carl
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by UG! »

i would urge anyone planning to do anything involving radioactive chemistory to first perform a similer process with potassium permanganate or rhodamine and water. then when they see how any chemicals tend to get EVERYWHERE not just in the preperation stage, but when you take off your gloves and wash your hands, then when you wasy your face beffore bed, then the next morning after its rained and there are pritty spots evrywhere you walked then a month later when you use some totaly unrelated pece of equipment and so on.

i have done and will continue to do many dangerious things. radioactve wet chemistory will not be one of them (at least not outside of a properly equiped establishment.)

Oliver
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Re: Source for Uranium Metal?

Post by 3l »

Hi Richard:

We government types do have some rationallity backed by science.
Where the country screws up is when you get some low level wanker to enforce policy with the ability to read but dumb as a box of rocks.

Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
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