Attached is a simple GM counter diagram for those wishing to "roll their own" on a shoe string budget.
The key is the GM tube. They cost about $100.00 for the cheapest new tube and a poor one at that. Good first rate mica windowed tubes are over $150.00. These are not normally encountered at fleamarkets or hamfests, but occassionally you will snag one for under $20.00.
A variable supply is only needed with unknown tubes. You will need to ease the voltage up to about 600 volts and then proceed slowly until clicks are just heard and then try advancing the voltage about another 25 to 50 volts beyond this in search of the middle of the "geiger plateau". Never allow the counter to roar with too high a voltage. This is townsend discharge and arc over and will ruin a tube rather fast. Once the proper operating voltage is established, a fixed or slightly variable supply might be cobbled up around a small fluorescent inverter supply.
Needless to say, you will need a known source like a uranium or thorium mineral as a way to detect where the counter starts to work. Never rely on backgorund counts. You might zip the voltage too high with the infrequent clicking.
So other than the counter and the power supply, you only need two real electronic components. A 3.9 megohm 1/4 watt resitor and a .001ufd 2kv capacitor. The cap can be a disk or tubular type.
A radio shack type palm sized amplifier with built in speaker, using a common 9 volt battery completes the detection system.
This is the system that I show assembled at the end of my radiation video tape.
I hope to place a simple ion chamber system in this forum soon. With this system, you would not need the expensive and often hard to locate GM tube! You would hand assemble the ion chamber detector using a cat food can. Unfortunately, it is electronically a bit more complicated than the super simple GM counter shown here, but not by much.
Richard Hull
SIMPLE Geiger Counter
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Richard Hull
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SIMPLE Geiger Counter
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Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Well, the only things i'm missing, are the HV adjustable power supply, and the GM tube.
The power supply may not be too big of a problem, using a flyback, and setting the input pulse amplitude, to set the output voltage. I can also buy a meter (old, used, ones, from some factory) for under a dollar.
But the GM tube is a major problem. I don't think there is any flea market around here, where i would find a GM tube. I'll ask around if i can find such a forum.
Maybe i can build one? Isn't it just two electrodes, with a high tension between them, and when an energetic gamma photon or neutron zips through the gas between the electrodes, the gas is ionized (locally) and that results in a short current spike?
Though i'm sure there is a lot more to that.
Adam
The power supply may not be too big of a problem, using a flyback, and setting the input pulse amplitude, to set the output voltage. I can also buy a meter (old, used, ones, from some factory) for under a dollar.
But the GM tube is a major problem. I don't think there is any flea market around here, where i would find a GM tube. I'll ask around if i can find such a forum.
Maybe i can build one? Isn't it just two electrodes, with a high tension between them, and when an energetic gamma photon or neutron zips through the gas between the electrodes, the gas is ionized (locally) and that results in a short current spike?
Though i'm sure there is a lot more to that.
Adam
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davidtrimmell
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Adam, contact LND Inc. at:
http://www.lndinc.com/infomail.html
And ask them if they will sell out of the US. They have those common Pancake detectors for around $70, or so. See:
http://www.lndinc.com/gm/gm.htm
I would think you would be able to get that old surplus Soviet stuff over there?
Good luck,
David Trimmell
http://www.lndinc.com/infomail.html
And ask them if they will sell out of the US. They have those common Pancake detectors for around $70, or so. See:
http://www.lndinc.com/gm/gm.htm
I would think you would be able to get that old surplus Soviet stuff over there?
Good luck,
David Trimmell
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
All that Soviet stuff is mostly gone now. The ruskies left a lot of stuff here in 1989 when they finally left.For example they sold AK-47 style machine guns on the roadside, for almost nothing.
Conrad electronics used to have an old russian GM counter , a couple years back, but when i wanted to buy one, they told me they are out of it. They got it from an unknown source, no surplus.
But if i'm lucky LND will be able to send me a GM tube.
I've sent them a message (thanks David).
If not i'll try my luck in military shops. They might have some old russian rad. detection equippment.
Adam
Conrad electronics used to have an old russian GM counter , a couple years back, but when i wanted to buy one, they told me they are out of it. They got it from an unknown source, no surplus.
But if i'm lucky LND will be able to send me a GM tube.
I've sent them a message (thanks David).
If not i'll try my luck in military shops. They might have some old russian rad. detection equippment.
Adam
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Andrew Seltzman
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
I'd get one off ebay, I have had very good experiences with a tube from a broken cdv-700 that I got for $10. I have found that a voltage multiplier works well. It is possible to build the following counter for about $25.
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/electronics/geiger.htm
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/electronics/geiger.htm
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
www.rtftechnologies.org
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Well i would gladly get it from eBay, but as it has been discussed, no counter, or any rad. detector (as a whole) can be sent to an outside address from the US.
I hope that a GM tube can be exported, as it is not a complete radiation detection instrument just a part of it. Right now i'm waiting for the company to reply. We'll see.
Adam
I hope that a GM tube can be exported, as it is not a complete radiation detection instrument just a part of it. Right now i'm waiting for the company to reply. We'll see.
Adam
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henryhallam
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Hi Adam,
I'm in the UK and have bought a couple of complete working geiger counters off www.ebay.co.uk at pretty cheap prices (about £20/$35 each). You might find a uk ebay seller willing to ship to you - otherwise if you're really stuck I could buy one for you and post it. I don't expect there are a lot of restrictions going from the UK to Hungary, or if they are I can conveniently ignore them
Henry Hallam
I'm in the UK and have bought a couple of complete working geiger counters off www.ebay.co.uk at pretty cheap prices (about £20/$35 each). You might find a uk ebay seller willing to ship to you - otherwise if you're really stuck I could buy one for you and post it. I don't expect there are a lot of restrictions going from the UK to Hungary, or if they are I can conveniently ignore them
Henry Hallam
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Brian McDermott
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Isn't the mail supposed to be secure? How do the powers that be determine the contents of a package?
Sure, an x-ray machine will discern a geiger counter as a piece of electronic equipment, but unless they know what to look for, a typical postal worker won't be able to tell a Ludlum Model 3 ratemeter from something ordinary like a telephone. Heck, some people can't even do that when it's out of the package!
I'm still a little suspect that something as benign as a geiger counter would be lost to homeland security (I only know of one instance in which a shipment was seized, and that was a domestic shipment involving model rocket engines). After all, Henry Hallam on this board got his Neutron counter from an ebay seller at Los Alamos without a problem. Ludlum also sells to international customers (albeit at a higher price). But it is still unusual to have something not show up after 6 months, even if you are in central Europe. It is quite possible that the postal system is to blame. Somebody may have left the box sitting on a lower shelf in the back corner of a warehouse, for instance.
Sure, an x-ray machine will discern a geiger counter as a piece of electronic equipment, but unless they know what to look for, a typical postal worker won't be able to tell a Ludlum Model 3 ratemeter from something ordinary like a telephone. Heck, some people can't even do that when it's out of the package!
I'm still a little suspect that something as benign as a geiger counter would be lost to homeland security (I only know of one instance in which a shipment was seized, and that was a domestic shipment involving model rocket engines). After all, Henry Hallam on this board got his Neutron counter from an ebay seller at Los Alamos without a problem. Ludlum also sells to international customers (albeit at a higher price). But it is still unusual to have something not show up after 6 months, even if you are in central Europe. It is quite possible that the postal system is to blame. Somebody may have left the box sitting on a lower shelf in the back corner of a warehouse, for instance.
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Indeed, that might have happened. I'm groeing much more confident that i can after all get a counter from the US, as i have found loads of geiger counters on ebay.com and almost all state "Will ship worldwide".
http://search.ebay.com/geiger-counter_W ... 1QQfromZR8
I only found a very old device on the UK ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... eName=WDVW
Adam
http://search.ebay.com/geiger-counter_W ... 1QQfromZR8
I only found a very old device on the UK ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... eName=WDVW
Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Beware, not all of those are geiger counters. I have posts here that talk about bad stuff on E-bay. ( non-counters, special batteries, dead systems.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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JerryCBlack
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Do any of you guys have any experience with solid state detectors. e.g. using a PIN diode in much the same way as a GM tube? So far I have found only 2 circuit diagrams. they are very close to each other.
Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
A DIY solution
It is possible to make a geiger tube at a pinch - A piece of copper plumbing pipe or a cigar tube, two plastic end stops and a piece of wire - drill a central hole in the end stops and extend the wire co-axially. heat seal the wire into the end stops. Drill a second hole in one end stop and fit a small plastic or metal Vac tube. Gently Vac and back fill with argon and some isopropal alcohol. Seal the vac tube. It will detect Beta and Gamma mostly from the end, If you want alpha, you need a thin wall tube or disc with a foil lid. I have built an alpha by removing part of a copper pipe wall and covering with very thin Al cooking foil stuck on with super glue before vacuuming. The vacuum pulled is only about 500millibar
It is possible to make a geiger tube at a pinch - A piece of copper plumbing pipe or a cigar tube, two plastic end stops and a piece of wire - drill a central hole in the end stops and extend the wire co-axially. heat seal the wire into the end stops. Drill a second hole in one end stop and fit a small plastic or metal Vac tube. Gently Vac and back fill with argon and some isopropal alcohol. Seal the vac tube. It will detect Beta and Gamma mostly from the end, If you want alpha, you need a thin wall tube or disc with a foil lid. I have built an alpha by removing part of a copper pipe wall and covering with very thin Al cooking foil stuck on with super glue before vacuuming. The vacuum pulled is only about 500millibar
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Roberto Ferrari
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Again, I quote Strong (Procedures in Experimental Physics). There are detailed explanations to make your own GM tubes.
Roberto
Roberto
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Richard Hull
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
The absolute best reference on GM tube construction is given in Korff's books. The best is "electron and nuclear counters". He gives details on construction and back fills.
Korff's wartime work was that of refining and working out methods for nuclear detection tubes and proportional counters for mass production. He lets loose a lot of tricks from his trade in this effort.
Still, This is the very hard way to make a counter and demands that a lot of skills, materials, and instrumentation already be on hand.
Richard Hull
Korff's wartime work was that of refining and working out methods for nuclear detection tubes and proportional counters for mass production. He lets loose a lot of tricks from his trade in this effort.
Still, This is the very hard way to make a counter and demands that a lot of skills, materials, and instrumentation already be on hand.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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ChrisSmolinski
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Adam Szendrey wrote:
> Well i would gladly get it from eBay, but as it has been discussed, no
counter, or any rad. detector (as a whole) can be sent to an outside address
from the US.
I've never heard of such a restriction. I ship my GM-10 and GM-45 detectors
worldwide, without any problems. ( http://www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/ )
LND doesn't like to mess with small orders, especially overseas.
> Well i would gladly get it from eBay, but as it has been discussed, no
counter, or any rad. detector (as a whole) can be sent to an outside address
from the US.
I've never heard of such a restriction. I ship my GM-10 and GM-45 detectors
worldwide, without any problems. ( http://www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/ )
LND doesn't like to mess with small orders, especially overseas.
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Glad to know that! Thanks.
Then the counter that Larry sent me was somehow misplaced, or forgotten at some point between the two countries. That makes me quite upset, but i cannot do anythong about it.
Nice detectors Chris. I have a notebook, it would make a great moblie rad. detection station.
What do others think of it? The price (150 $)for the GM-10 plus software seems reasonable to me.
Adam
Then the counter that Larry sent me was somehow misplaced, or forgotten at some point between the two countries. That makes me quite upset, but i cannot do anythong about it.
Nice detectors Chris. I have a notebook, it would make a great moblie rad. detection station.
What do others think of it? The price (150 $)for the GM-10 plus software seems reasonable to me.
Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Chris is correct about LND. They are not happy with onesy-twosies. I have struggled with the titular head owner/engineer of the company to get a full alpha - beta- gamma effeciency report on their pancakes. He has failed to respond to two e-mails and two phone requests for this data. (When I talked to him, he said he had the data sheets and would forward them to me).... The gamma data is more or less on line, but that is it.
I have purchased about 15 tubes from them with one order for ten which was delivered and was their usual fine quality product. I guess that don't feed his bull dog.
Based on the failure of this simple engineering request, If they weren't the only real game in town, or delivered less quality than they do, I would be gone in a quick New York minute. I guess two outta' three ain't bad in today's business world. (cornered market via price point and good quality)
Richard Hull
I have purchased about 15 tubes from them with one order for ten which was delivered and was their usual fine quality product. I guess that don't feed his bull dog.
Based on the failure of this simple engineering request, If they weren't the only real game in town, or delivered less quality than they do, I would be gone in a quick New York minute. I guess two outta' three ain't bad in today's business world. (cornered market via price point and good quality)
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
ChrisSmolinski
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
LND's bread and butter is selling zillions of little GM tubes. I imagine their
business is booming lately. I buy one or two hundred a year, and have only
moved up to the level where I get a free LND calendar
Is this for the 7317/series tube? I can try asking Bob for the specs, I could
use them myself, let me know which tube... I may have some emails from him
regarding beta sensitivity at certain energies. Alpha should be darn near
100% for those that make it through the mica window, window thickess and
any air between the source and window should allow a rough calculation of
the low end cutoff I would think?
There are some other folks in the business, but LND is definately #1. There's
a guy in texas making 7317 knockoffs for $50/ea qty 100, but I have never
tried one myself. It's not worth saving a few bucks when I am dealing with the
heart of the unit. Note that LND's price is very dependent on qty, as Richard
said they do not want to sell onesy-twosies, which I can understand. It's a
money-loser for most businesses. Qty 10 is generally the knee in their unit
price curve. Once you hit 25, it's bottomed out. I'd offer to do a group buy, but
re-shipping costs would eat into any savings, unless we all met up to divvy
up the goods.
LND doesn't hit you up for crazy "shipping and handling" charges either,
which I greatly appreciate in this day and age. As opposed to say Advanced
Circuits which charged me $28 for a proto PCB and then $14 to stick it in an
envelope. (The old lure them in with a low price and then nail them on
shipping game. Heavily used on eBay as well)
business is booming lately. I buy one or two hundred a year, and have only
moved up to the level where I get a free LND calendar
Is this for the 7317/series tube? I can try asking Bob for the specs, I could
use them myself, let me know which tube... I may have some emails from him
regarding beta sensitivity at certain energies. Alpha should be darn near
100% for those that make it through the mica window, window thickess and
any air between the source and window should allow a rough calculation of
the low end cutoff I would think?
There are some other folks in the business, but LND is definately #1. There's
a guy in texas making 7317 knockoffs for $50/ea qty 100, but I have never
tried one myself. It's not worth saving a few bucks when I am dealing with the
heart of the unit. Note that LND's price is very dependent on qty, as Richard
said they do not want to sell onesy-twosies, which I can understand. It's a
money-loser for most businesses. Qty 10 is generally the knee in their unit
price curve. Once you hit 25, it's bottomed out. I'd offer to do a group buy, but
re-shipping costs would eat into any savings, unless we all met up to divvy
up the goods.
LND doesn't hit you up for crazy "shipping and handling" charges either,
which I greatly appreciate in this day and age. As opposed to say Advanced
Circuits which charged me $28 for a proto PCB and then $14 to stick it in an
envelope. (The old lure them in with a low price and then nail them on
shipping game. Heavily used on eBay as well)
Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Well it would be darn handy if someone would post on making GM tubes DIY style...
I imagine everyone who reads this board probably has the means and skill to follow a good lead.
I imagine everyone who reads this board probably has the means and skill to follow a good lead.
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Richard Hull
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Believe me, if you have ever used a pancake you will never use another geiger tube type!
You can't make pancakes! The mica would stop most everyone.
This assumes that you have a plus ultra vacuum system and a full manifold for re-admission of the twin gases/vapors needed with full vacuum pressure sensors. The hard part about geiger tubes is the ultra clean and fully outgassed components required. (Read Korff's book) Bad components or poor gas quality will shorten tube life just sitting on a shelf, or, accelerate its demise when in use.
If you were actually going to setup an assembly line to make the tubes for money, the cost would be minimal based on future profits, but for one or two, if you are not already setup, the cost would be absurd.
If you are looking at making a 1B85 type tube that is alpha insensitive (solid aluminum can) you are a bit better off, but you are limited in your radiation detection as well.
Richard Hulll
You can't make pancakes! The mica would stop most everyone.
This assumes that you have a plus ultra vacuum system and a full manifold for re-admission of the twin gases/vapors needed with full vacuum pressure sensors. The hard part about geiger tubes is the ultra clean and fully outgassed components required. (Read Korff's book) Bad components or poor gas quality will shorten tube life just sitting on a shelf, or, accelerate its demise when in use.
If you were actually going to setup an assembly line to make the tubes for money, the cost would be minimal based on future profits, but for one or two, if you are not already setup, the cost would be absurd.
If you are looking at making a 1B85 type tube that is alpha insensitive (solid aluminum can) you are a bit better off, but you are limited in your radiation detection as well.
Richard Hulll
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
Roberto Ferrari
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
I agree 100% with Richard.
Doing the GM tubes the hard way just was considered an option due to Adam's comments about lack of suppliers in Europe.
Adam: Do you take for sure that unavailability?
Roberto
Doing the GM tubes the hard way just was considered an option due to Adam's comments about lack of suppliers in Europe.
Adam: Do you take for sure that unavailability?
Roberto
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Well to this date i have only been looking for cheap stuff on eBays in the neighbourhood.
I'm sure i could get a GM counter and neutron detector here in Europe, but it will cost as much as anywhere in the world..a lot.
All i can do is to look around with google. So far i haven't found a tube supplier. I would need the ability to speak several languages in order to do a real search.
Brian, has told me to ask a guy who of a radiation detection "fanclub", if they have something for me, and he redirected me to another person here in europe. So far no response from him.
I'm sure there are manufacturers in Europe but i just cannot find them!
***
I've just found a UK company manufacturing a broad range of tubes. Here's their selection page:
http://www.centronic.co.uk/radiation/geiger.htm
And main page:
http://www.centronic.co.uk/radiation/main_rd.htm
Thoughts?
Adam
I'm sure i could get a GM counter and neutron detector here in Europe, but it will cost as much as anywhere in the world..a lot.
All i can do is to look around with google. So far i haven't found a tube supplier. I would need the ability to speak several languages in order to do a real search.
Brian, has told me to ask a guy who of a radiation detection "fanclub", if they have something for me, and he redirected me to another person here in europe. So far no response from him.
I'm sure there are manufacturers in Europe but i just cannot find them!
***
I've just found a UK company manufacturing a broad range of tubes. Here's their selection page:
http://www.centronic.co.uk/radiation/geiger.htm
And main page:
http://www.centronic.co.uk/radiation/main_rd.htm
Thoughts?
Adam
Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
I appreciate Adam's predicament. OTOH, his problem could become quite generalized in todays world. I wouldn't underestimate the value of DIY anything. And I imagine, we could develop appropriate techniques.
Its like the elements data... if we find it we should copy it to this board... and elsewhere... and a discussion of laboratory techniques and device assembly strategies isn't a bad idea either.
Its like the elements data... if we find it we should copy it to this board... and elsewhere... and a discussion of laboratory techniques and device assembly strategies isn't a bad idea either.
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Roberto Ferrari
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
Adam,
I think you can get in touch with old radio tube collectors. They usually will take a GM tube under their interests.
The best contact is Rüdiger Walz, a lovely person, not only collector of old radios and tubes but also a vacuum expert, who makes replicas of old tubes. I met him a couple of times in Germany. He knows about the old tube market.
Learn about his activities:
http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbr ... -Seite.htm
Even he can make one for you!
Roberto
I think you can get in touch with old radio tube collectors. They usually will take a GM tube under their interests.
The best contact is Rüdiger Walz, a lovely person, not only collector of old radios and tubes but also a vacuum expert, who makes replicas of old tubes. I met him a couple of times in Germany. He knows about the old tube market.
Learn about his activities:
http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbr ... -Seite.htm
Even he can make one for you!
Roberto
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Richard Hester
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Re: SIMPLE Geiger Counter
A guy out of Austria at one time sold some nice geiger tubes made in Poland. on Ebay If I can find the tube (probably not real soon, as I just moved not too long ago and I have no idea where it is), I could possibly post the name of the Polish manufacturer. Fair Radio (www.fairradio.com) is selling the stanard tubes used in the AN/PDR-27 radiac set.