Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
-
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:00 pm
- Real name: Pablo Llaguno
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
Nothing to do with activation, but there is also the possibility of indirect measuring of neutron output by tracking damage (tracks) registration of charged particles produced by the interaction of neutrons with carbon and oxygen atoms of some dielectric materials. For example, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0207010595, used polycarbonate and showed some interesting results.
- Rich Feldman
- Posts: 1471
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
- Real name: Rich Feldman
- Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
There's another thread, within past couple of weeks, about developing tracks in solid detector media.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
- Jim Kovalchick
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:00 pm
- Real name:
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
Track etching will have less variables and less equipment requirements. Not a bad idea for standards. Does anyone have enough experience that they can comment on repeatability?
- Bob Reite
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:03 pm
- Real name: Bob Reite
- Location: Wilkes Barre/Scranton area
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
While not the precision we would like, Richard gave me an insight for at least determining the order of magnitude of neutron output using the results of silver activation.
The test set up would be silver foil, inside a moderator which also has a geiger tube that is sensitive to beta radiation. A CDV-700 with the beta window open on the "hot dog" tube in theory would suffice, but a mica windowed pancake probe wold be even better. The silver in the moderator would be exposed for 5 minutes while attempting to keep the neutron output at a high constant output. Counting must begin as soon as possible after HV shutdown.
That said, and corrections and comments are invited, this is what I believe could be determined by subjective listening to counter clicks, although actually counting and recording pulses vs time would be even better.
So from low to high
Note: All table entries have been revised from original post based on Richard's input
Under 150,000 n/s: At this low level, it would be impossible to discern the silver decay from background.
150,000 to 500,000 n/s: The initial decay of AG-110 wold be audible for a minute or so, but unless you can start monitoring the sample within seconds of shutdown you'll likely miss it at the lower end of this range.
500,000 to 1,000,000 n/s: The counter should be clicking as fast as it does when testing the counter with a beta check source.
1,00,000 - 2,000,000 n/s Faster clicks, but still recognizable as distinct pulses.
Above 2,000, 000 n/s: Counter audible output now sounds like bacon frying! Pulses have merged into a steady hiss.
The test set up would be silver foil, inside a moderator which also has a geiger tube that is sensitive to beta radiation. A CDV-700 with the beta window open on the "hot dog" tube in theory would suffice, but a mica windowed pancake probe wold be even better. The silver in the moderator would be exposed for 5 minutes while attempting to keep the neutron output at a high constant output. Counting must begin as soon as possible after HV shutdown.
That said, and corrections and comments are invited, this is what I believe could be determined by subjective listening to counter clicks, although actually counting and recording pulses vs time would be even better.
So from low to high
Note: All table entries have been revised from original post based on Richard's input
Under 150,000 n/s: At this low level, it would be impossible to discern the silver decay from background.
150,000 to 500,000 n/s: The initial decay of AG-110 wold be audible for a minute or so, but unless you can start monitoring the sample within seconds of shutdown you'll likely miss it at the lower end of this range.
500,000 to 1,000,000 n/s: The counter should be clicking as fast as it does when testing the counter with a beta check source.
1,00,000 - 2,000,000 n/s Faster clicks, but still recognizable as distinct pulses.
Above 2,000, 000 n/s: Counter audible output now sounds like bacon frying! Pulses have merged into a steady hiss.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
- Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15024
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
No! Silver foil or thin sheeting @ 400k n/s TIER exposed for 4-5 minutes would have the counter really clicking away to the ear. No counting needed. (assumes very close neutron oven of HDPE to the fusor)
Image below is silver in my fusor last year in early August at 250,000 n/s TIER the peak is at 80 counts in 5 seconds or 12X80 = 960cpm rate on a GM counter if you are on it the instant the fusor is turned off.
If it takes you 1 minute after the fusor is turned off the 5 sec count is ~30 X12 or 360 CPM. Well above a normal 50cpm background to the ear. This was one of my first runs with the imbedded GM and silver, before I wrapped the tube with a cylinder of silver. (crummy results) I got much better by HEAS 2020.
You just need an honest average rate of even less than 200,000 n/s TIER to make silver sing.
Richard Hull
Image below is silver in my fusor last year in early August at 250,000 n/s TIER the peak is at 80 counts in 5 seconds or 12X80 = 960cpm rate on a GM counter if you are on it the instant the fusor is turned off.
If it takes you 1 minute after the fusor is turned off the 5 sec count is ~30 X12 or 360 CPM. Well above a normal 50cpm background to the ear. This was one of my first runs with the imbedded GM and silver, before I wrapped the tube with a cylinder of silver. (crummy results) I got much better by HEAS 2020.
You just need an honest average rate of even less than 200,000 n/s TIER to make silver sing.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
Here is the equation I use (A is in Becquerel, make sure you correct for the 4pi efficiency of the detector and foil thickness [~85% for 0.1mm])
No need for subjectivity. Personally, Mn is my first choice, because of isotopic purity, and single gamma energy in the decay which makes absolute counting easier.
No need for subjectivity. Personally, Mn is my first choice, because of isotopic purity, and single gamma energy in the decay which makes absolute counting easier.
- Bob Reite
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:03 pm
- Real name: Bob Reite
- Location: Wilkes Barre/Scranton area
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
OK, I have revised the table entries based on Richard's input.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
- Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15024
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Using Silver (or other element) Activation to Quantify Neutron Output
Oops! I forgot. Regarding the above chart....Way back, this time last summer, I set my homemade GM Arduino data logger for 10 second count intervals. Once I started with Rhodium, I changed one line of code and made it count and log every 5 seconds. As such, The 80 X 12 should be 80 X 6 or 480 cpm rate at the instant of shutdown and not 960 cpm. Seems I did not read my own legend at the time axis on this old chart. Still, it was activation well above background. At that time I was using one single little strip of silver under the GM tube.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment