Nickel activation

This area is for discussions involving any fusion related radiation metrology issues. Neutrons are the key signature of fusion, but other radiations are of interest to the amateur fusioneer as well.
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Sarmad suseyn
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Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Hi
I activated nickel dental alloy pellets (picture for metal %)
The alloy is 68% nickel, 26 chrome and others.
I put it in the middle of the graphite block core for 2 days
It became slightly radioactive (20usv).
I measured the neutron count in one hour between 30000 and 17000 counts.
The graphite surround with iron plates 1cm , and all inside hdpe box.
Video link down
https://youtu.be/5V3KouSMFcY
https://youtu.be/iYYg52PsAVs
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

What is the neutron source? details please... The counter detector is what? Both Nickel and chrome have terrible cross sections and would require a dangerously intense source of neutrons. The videos really explain nothing. Normal background for a 3He neutron detector is about 600 per hour. What is your background in an hour? At17,000 counts per hour you are about 28x normal background. At 30,000 counts per hour you are at 50x background. I have operated a fusor and full counting systems for 20 years now and done a lot of activation. Today I activated Rhodium. My background was 11 counts per minute (3He counter) my peak neutron count was 132,510 counts per MINUTE! or 7,950,600 counts per hour and this will not activate Nickel! It will easily activate Silver, Indium and Rhodium.

Examples of nickel and chromium activation....

There are only two possible nickel isotopes that can play
Ni 58 makes up 68% of all nickel its c.c. (Capture cross section) is only 4.4 this might go with an intense neutron source but its product Ni59 has a half life of 10,000 years! You could not grow this in 2 days forget it.
Ni 62 makes up only 3.6% of nickel and has a cross section of 15 a bit better but the half life of Ni 63 is 95 years! Again no possibility of any activation here in so small an amount of isotope in the nickel.

Chrome is no better with only 2 possible isotopes as well. Cr50 has a c.c. of 17 but at only 4% of it in nickel and its product Cr51 has a half life of 28 days not much build up in 2 days. Cr51 decays by electron capture and produces no beta to count on a GM counter.
Cr54 is the only other possibility but is only about 3.3% of all nickel with a terrible c.c. of only 0.38 its product Cr55 is a beta emitter and will fully activate in about 20 minutes and never get any hotter over time for a given flux.

Now, I doubt you produced any activation until I know the exact source and strength of your neutrons. The counter shown was not really rolling, at all. It is all in the details. The odds you activated Nickel is near zero. Grab a detailed table of the isotopes with relative cross sections and figure on what I got from my book, above, with the full table of the isotopes for all elements and relative decay data, as well.

We do demand significant data related to claimed activation results. Far more believable would be activating pure silver which is easy, very robust and definitive. Silver can be fully activated in only 15 minute of exposure to any neutron source be it strong or weak. Details, details and more details needed.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Dear Richard
Thanks for the big trust!!
First of all im using AmBe as starting source for my graphite core with U oxide tubes.
I send youtube links ,
Im using Snm-14 counter for counting neutrons, and terra-p Geiger counter.
But im not sure 100% from where the radioactivity from nickel or something else.
I can demonstrate any other material to activate , just tell me which one, i make a video before and after.
Now you pushed me to get gamaspectrometer .
Check the down link
https://youtu.be/eC19JkivTxA
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

Try activating pure silver foil or sheet. If activated, it will emit lots of beta particles and give me an idea of the strength of your neutron source. As noted earlier, what you are doing is against the NRC regulations here in the United States. I have no idea about Kuwait's regulations, if any.

You will fully activate the silver in only about about 20 minutes as your flux is fixed. Longer exposure gains you virtually nothing, as it is decaying as fast as you make it after that.

I created a FAQ on silver activation back in 2008.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5899

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Thanks god i don't live in US.
Give me few days to get my self a pure silver piece small enough to go in side the shaft of the core. The i will send a youtube link.
Best regards
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Done found my old silver ring, i hammered it to fit inside, l left it inside for 30 min
Results in the youtube link below:
https://youtu.be/sCoBciPTTXY
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Mark Rowley
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Mark Rowley »

How much time passed from when you took it out of your neutron source to when you started the camera?

How long did the activity shown in the video last?

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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

It took me Around 1 to 2 minutes to another room away from the core, after 6 mins no radiations counted.
I did this for only one reason, all my experiments is towards making nuclear battery , sorry i like fusor reactor, but all your experiments here is to get neutrons and activate something. I made short cut to isotopes. Now i can find more isotopes emitting beta and alpha. So that i can make my battery, yes i know im sharing illegal experiments here , but its not easy to get required isotopes with the fusor running all day to make isotopes, i can leave the sample few days or weeks in side the core without attention, will i have some safety measures like temperature and alarm, we dont want another chernobel :)
If i get half a million neutrons a day it means i will get 3.5 million in a week. Now count for a month!
Dont forget that my core is surrounded with 1cm iron plates, and hdpe it means in the core should be much more neutron
But i cant count how much . This counts is only count of escaped neutrons.
Thanks
Last edited by Sarmad suseyn on Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

It appears you have enough americium to do some limited activation probably around a few milli-Curies or a bit more. That is far more than is allowed here.

I am sorry to say you will make no nuclear battery. Batteries are about energy have you run the numbers on how much activation you will need to even deliver 2 microamps of flowing current? The easy to activate elements are all short lived so they can be activated in a real time manner. Batteries will need long lived isotopes and this means giant reactor activations of 10e13 neutrons per square centimeter per second flux levels. (That is 10 trillion n/sq. cm/sec) and exposure times in these nuclear fission powered reactors for weeks or months before you have activated a tiny amount. I doubt if you have more than 20 neutrons per square cm per second in your current setup.

Batteries that produce 1-3 microamps of steady current would be radiologically dangerous and might require nuclear licensing to make, sell of own.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Dear Richard read edited massage up. Sorry for that
And thanks for destroying my dreams. But still im going for it
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

The idea of a nuclear battery is not new here. We occasionally get a person show up looking to make a nuclear battery, before they investigate all the particulars needed to make a successful source of electricity from decaying isotopes. There is no work-around on the nuclear physics of turning radiation into electricity. So, you are not the only person who dreams big.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Radon gas is a significant issue with purified uranium so you need to make sure that it is properly ventilated (stored and worked with only in a properly flowing hood) and not used in an enclosed room. Wear gloves when handling those plugs or any time with the uranium - that is always good practice with any pure materials that emmit radiation and/or are toxic; uranium qualifies as both. A respirator when ever processing the uranium powder is essential - getting those partcles into the lungs is a sure method to developing lung cancer. These and many other precautions are essential if you want to minimize the risks. You are doing very risky experiments and at the least need to read extensively on safe handling and proper disposual of those materials. Do be absoultly certain you are operating within the laws of your country -officals can get very upset with these types of materials.

Impressive work but do be safe - like high voltage systems, mistakes with radioactive materials are extremely unforgiving.
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Thanks Dennis for your advice
Im certified in radiations protection . All the oxides in sealed tubes.
And the room is well ventilated.
Regarding the laws: don't tell you neighbours and friends anything . Every country there is laws that can screw you.
But there is a russian say: who dont risk don't drink vodka
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

NOTE: purified uranium will really never have any radon associated with it or any of its chemicals for at least 20,000 years from the date of purification! Purified uranium will chemically transfer only U238 and U234 and the pitiable amount of U-235 to the metal or any uranic chemical so purified. Thus 100% of all uranium metal and chemicals extant today have no real radon emanating from them, nor will they for a very long time. The U234 has to decay to a 20,000 year half-life thorium daughter, and then it will decay to radium with a 1620 year half life-which will then be pumping out radon like a big bear. The U238 will take far more than a million years to catch up to be in full equilibrium with the U234 and all the rest of the uranium series decay products to Lead.

Purified Uranium will see the 234 decay before the U238 can replace much of it so in about 100,000 years radium and radon will grow to a peak and then fade almost completely until a couple of millions years later the U234 will grow to a peak as the U238 and the U234 come into equilibrium and Radium will start to grow one final time until the entire series from U238 to lead are once again in total equilibrium as it was when that ore was mined and sent to the purification process in the 1950's, 3-4 million years ago.

In the year 3,503,120 that bottle of purified uranium nitrate from 1950 will be full of radon gas, U238, U234, U235 and an unweighable amount of radium, thorium, protactinium, polonium, bismuth, thallium and lead.

In today's world the only way you can get radon gas from Uranium is emanating from the raw rock uranium ore, (unprocessed) or from chemically extracted, refined pure radium chemical, (watch and clock dials and hands, instrument dial plates, etc.)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Yes Richard you are right about radon gas, but i have radon gas from thorium rod
I have three colours:
Green: high grades U oxide
Blue :hell high U grade
Orange: thorium oxide
In the middle is isotope well
And i'm still adding holes.
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Re: Nickel activation

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Thorium is a whole different animal compared to Uranium as regards radon. Once purified, thorium will be kicking out a far more dangerous radon within 40 years!! Equilibrium is attained fast in pure thorium. Once called thoron gas, thorium's radon 220 is far more dangerous to humans than Uranium's radon 222. Let us say you are in an equal concentration of radon 220 and radon 222. Call this concentration "x". With a normal respiration of 2 seconds intake you will have .036X of thorium's radon, thoron, decay to solids within your lungs. However, for Uranium's radon 222 you would have only .000006X of its solids decay products in that same breath within your lungs.

Just like purified Uranium, the thorium 228 isotope is carried over when you purify for thorium 232. You will reach a dangerous "thoron" gas peak in only 4 years after purification which will die off with the loss of Th228 with its 1.9 year half life. However, thoron gas will once again return for a final time to full blown emission after 35 years from purification. So, purified thorium will be a dangerous thoron gas emitter from 3-6 years after purification and then nearly cease thoron gas production, only to return to a maximum, once again in 40 years.

While neither are to be welcomed, thorium radon, thoron, is dangerous beyond comparison. Stated another way, Thoron from thorium is ~6000 times more deadly, long term, than radon 222 or "emanation" from the uranium series. The only way to get maximized Thoron gas released is from thorium bearing rock ore, or from 35-40 year old purified thorium metal or thorium chemicals.

So many people have very little knowledge residing at the core level of their understanding of radioactive elements and their radiations. Constant reading and thinking about simple facts can result in an ownership rarely achieved by an individual related to this subject. It helps to think like a chemist, a "Radiochemist", to see the facts unfold in their full glory and horror. For instance...Want a short lived maximized thoron gas source of 14 day total emission for experiment?....Take 40 year old Thorium nitrate and extract the unweighable radium226. The extraction will produce high levels of thoron gas for 1 day, the thoron emission constantly dying away over the next 13 days. After 14 days all the remaining Ra226 daughters would be dead and your preparation would be pure stable lead208.

Uranium and thorium series Radium 226 and Radium 224 "cows", respectively, have been milked since the early 1900's for their late series, "fast daughters". Such "cows" are easily made and can be used for their short lived intense radiations involving no use of nasty chemical separations.... Think like a radiochemist!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Thanks. For the information. I know that. This why i use ventilation system in my lab.
I have only 2 g from it nothing more.
Sarmad suseyn
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Sarmad suseyn »

Thanks for this useful information. But still I'm a dreamer
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Richard Hull »

Dreams keeps us going whether they are realized on not. Einstein dreamed and worked on until his death of a grand unified field theory. Never realized by him and not realized to this day.... Same for the fusion dream. No where in sight.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Nickel activation

Post by Frank Sanns »

This topic is now locked. There are items that are not lawful in much of the world and the possible veiled threat toward Richard is not acceptable.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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