play dough vacuum seal
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
How the hell does a bit of 0.5 inch aluminium get bent in the post
unless of course you have skimped and used something much thinner---read not suitable
you need to work out your active vacuum area in square inches and then the plastic modulus of your plate material
aluminium is not very strong / tough. Steel or stainless would have been much better even hard brass plate is superior
also 0.5 inch thick in aluminium is about a minimum for threaded seals from 1/8" up. You might get away with 3/8 plate stainless for the same use
unless of course you have skimped and used something much thinner---read not suitable
you need to work out your active vacuum area in square inches and then the plastic modulus of your plate material
aluminium is not very strong / tough. Steel or stainless would have been much better even hard brass plate is superior
also 0.5 inch thick in aluminium is about a minimum for threaded seals from 1/8" up. You might get away with 3/8 plate stainless for the same use
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
Hello and please read up on vacuum systems and best practices; there are sources here in the FAQ's if you search carefully and there are books available on the subject. An excellent reference are old issues of Scientific American magazine that are available on line or at a library (old issues from the 1950's to 70's.) See their amateur scientist sections.
That said a wine bottle can make a great small but very serviceable "glass bell jar" like chamber. Simply cut the bottom off using an inexpensive scratching kit (these are sold on amazon and are bottle cutting systems with instructions on how to do it.) Wine bottles are thick and good quality glass and the upper end accepts a stopper that an electrode can be inserted thru (i.e. a piece of stripped copper wire.)
A gasket can be made from a rubber sheet (again, amazon and cheap.) Since you can grind the bottle surface (the cut section) so it is smooth, the gasket will seal w/o any vacuum grease. A cheap steel plate like a saw blade can be used as a base plate - the large hole can be used as a vacuum port via using epoxy to seal an appropriate sized copper tube (a good vacuum port.) Then with a proper vacuum gauge (that reads torr, not atm!) you can get a feel for real vacuum systems and an idea on what your pump can really do. Hooking up a neon sign transformer to create a plasma is then simple.
I used such a design in high school to make my first successful sputtering system.
That said a wine bottle can make a great small but very serviceable "glass bell jar" like chamber. Simply cut the bottom off using an inexpensive scratching kit (these are sold on amazon and are bottle cutting systems with instructions on how to do it.) Wine bottles are thick and good quality glass and the upper end accepts a stopper that an electrode can be inserted thru (i.e. a piece of stripped copper wire.)
A gasket can be made from a rubber sheet (again, amazon and cheap.) Since you can grind the bottle surface (the cut section) so it is smooth, the gasket will seal w/o any vacuum grease. A cheap steel plate like a saw blade can be used as a base plate - the large hole can be used as a vacuum port via using epoxy to seal an appropriate sized copper tube (a good vacuum port.) Then with a proper vacuum gauge (that reads torr, not atm!) you can get a feel for real vacuum systems and an idea on what your pump can really do. Hooking up a neon sign transformer to create a plasma is then simple.
I used such a design in high school to make my first successful sputtering system.
- Jim Kovalchick
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
I frankly worry about threads like this. I admire the overall desire to try for plasma, but there seems to be a lack of knowledge prerequisite to assembly of the project and adding energy in the forms of vacuum and high voltage.
Jamming a conductor through a hole in the baseplate and surrounding it with jb weld will not work. Using a bell jar desugned to display a flower arrangement will not only not work, but it might get you or someone else hurt. I don't mean to talk down at all because my own knowledge was once far below what was needed.
Use play dough, sure...of course it wasn't going to work, but it it doesn't hurt to learn a few things the hard way. My biggest problem is the continued string of bad decisions. I personally refuse to render more advice until you spend more time with the FAQ's and commit to working with safe equipment. I don't want you to be hurt and I don't want any hint of liability. I wish you the best.
Jamming a conductor through a hole in the baseplate and surrounding it with jb weld will not work. Using a bell jar desugned to display a flower arrangement will not only not work, but it might get you or someone else hurt. I don't mean to talk down at all because my own knowledge was once far below what was needed.
Use play dough, sure...of course it wasn't going to work, but it it doesn't hurt to learn a few things the hard way. My biggest problem is the continued string of bad decisions. I personally refuse to render more advice until you spend more time with the FAQ's and commit to working with safe equipment. I don't want you to be hurt and I don't want any hint of liability. I wish you the best.
- Mark Rowley
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
Guglielmo, I have to agree with Jim’s response to the highest degree. If for nothing else, your safety hinges upon reading the FAQ’s many times over until you get a firm grasp on what’s required.
Also, post an intro about yourself in the “Please Introduce Yourself” forum as required by the site rules (it’s supposed to be your first post before anything else). If we know more about your experience, member responses can be tailor fit to your background and experience level.
Mark Rowley
Also, post an intro about yourself in the “Please Introduce Yourself” forum as required by the site rules (it’s supposed to be your first post before anything else). If we know more about your experience, member responses can be tailor fit to your background and experience level.
Mark Rowley
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
Thanks all for the comments and the advice!
Just to be clear, I am trying to see how cheaply I can build a system that shows clearly a plasma ball (so the wine bottle or a jar would not work because of all the visual distortions). So, the hacky approach is entirely by design (It would be all too easy to buy chamber and feed-throughs from Kurt J Lesker...). I do have some experience working with high voltage systems, and I am fully aware of the risks that come when combining vacuum and high voltage and how to mitigate them.
Thanks again!
Just to be clear, I am trying to see how cheaply I can build a system that shows clearly a plasma ball (so the wine bottle or a jar would not work because of all the visual distortions). So, the hacky approach is entirely by design (It would be all too easy to buy chamber and feed-throughs from Kurt J Lesker...). I do have some experience working with high voltage systems, and I am fully aware of the risks that come when combining vacuum and high voltage and how to mitigate them.
Thanks again!
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
I have relocated this post the appropriate forum. To be honest, I wonder why the post even exists and almost dumped the entire thread but I shall let it stand for instructional purposes.
Sanding a fire polished surface to flatten it puts many fine notches into the glass. Theses are all weak points for the system to fail under vacuum. You say you are experience but I am not seeing it in your posts.
If plasma is what you want, then why vacuum at all? These plasma globes are ubiquitous for under $20 USD. They do not use high vacuums but rather gas mixtures that give plasma at much higher pressures.
Sanding a fire polished surface to flatten it puts many fine notches into the glass. Theses are all weak points for the system to fail under vacuum. You say you are experience but I am not seeing it in your posts.
If plasma is what you want, then why vacuum at all? These plasma globes are ubiquitous for under $20 USD. They do not use high vacuums but rather gas mixtures that give plasma at much higher pressures.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
- Richard Hull
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
I agree! leave this up as an example of how not to do vacuum work within a demo fusor. It points out over a long and tedious group of postings that using all the wrong materials and little understanding about how even a well sealed insulated plastic lead wire and even the best vacuum rated epoxies and greases under ion and electron bombardment in vacuo will outgas and kill the vacuum. Never let any plastics, epoxies or greases exist in even tiny amounts within a vacuum where bombardment is possible.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
- Rich Feldman
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
If Guillermo's aluminum plate had been properly smooth and flat, and 3/8 or 1/2 inch thick, I bet it would work fine.
I once had marginal success with a 8" bell jar and baseplate of 3/8" thick HDPE plastic, which deflected about 1/2 mm from the suction (IIRC).
The Young's modulus (stiffness) of that material is about 1 GPa, compared to about 70 GPa for all aluminum alloys and about 200 GPa for all steels.
That HDPE accepted tapered 1/8"-NPT threads for a vacuum gauge port and a low voltage electrical feedthrough.
In fact 3/8" is approximately the normal length that 1/8" NPT pipe nipples thread into fittings.
I once had marginal success with a 8" bell jar and baseplate of 3/8" thick HDPE plastic, which deflected about 1/2 mm from the suction (IIRC).
The Young's modulus (stiffness) of that material is about 1 GPa, compared to about 70 GPa for all aluminum alloys and about 200 GPa for all steels.
That HDPE accepted tapered 1/8"-NPT threads for a vacuum gauge port and a low voltage electrical feedthrough.
In fact 3/8" is approximately the normal length that 1/8" NPT pipe nipples thread into fittings.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
Rich,
Did you see the glass "bell jar" that he was using? It was thin and untempered. ANY deflection from a warped base plate of such a fragile piece of glass from bending would be catastrophic.
A heavy wall tempered glass proper jar is at least double the thickness of these display glass canopies. Stiffness goes up with the cube of thickness so double the thickness is 8 times the rigidity and strength in this case.
Couple that with the misconception that a poor vacuum does not exert as much stress on the bell jar as a high vacuum and there is a problem. High vacuums of 1 x 10^8 torr are essentially the same forces on a container as a 10 torr vacuum! Nine orders of magnitude of vacuum and essentially the same forces on the enclosing container!
Did you see the glass "bell jar" that he was using? It was thin and untempered. ANY deflection from a warped base plate of such a fragile piece of glass from bending would be catastrophic.
A heavy wall tempered glass proper jar is at least double the thickness of these display glass canopies. Stiffness goes up with the cube of thickness so double the thickness is 8 times the rigidity and strength in this case.
Couple that with the misconception that a poor vacuum does not exert as much stress on the bell jar as a high vacuum and there is a problem. High vacuums of 1 x 10^8 torr are essentially the same forces on a container as a 10 torr vacuum! Nine orders of magnitude of vacuum and essentially the same forces on the enclosing container!
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
- Richard Hull
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
He is focused on sealing rather than safety. In an earlier post in this thread I noted the dangers in using the wrong type of bell jar. 10 microns of air pressure in a demo fusor will not only give you a beautiful round ball of plasma in a symmetrical grid, but also star mode rays. His bell jar is dangerous and his sealing attempts abortive.
Proper vacuum rated bell jars and their current prices can be found at
https://www.thomassci.com/Supplies/Bell ... ass%20Bell
For bargain basement prices go to Duniway at
https://www.duniway.com/part/10x12
Duniway' viton L gasket for the jar is a steal at $50.00
I actually own this 10" Duniway bell jar that I bought in 1999 with L gasket. I will be happy to let it go for a mere $500
Richard Hull
Proper vacuum rated bell jars and their current prices can be found at
https://www.thomassci.com/Supplies/Bell ... ass%20Bell
For bargain basement prices go to Duniway at
https://www.duniway.com/part/10x12
Duniway' viton L gasket for the jar is a steal at $50.00
I actually own this 10" Duniway bell jar that I bought in 1999 with L gasket. I will be happy to let it go for a mere $500
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: play dough vacuum seal
Made a "proto-putty" type silicone seal for my bell jar - lots of info on it on the innerweb.
Just used soapy water & GE silicone 1 - not the starch method.
It's gooo-ey, gooey, then sets within 30 seconds
The "seal" is still out-gassing acetic acid ..weeks later.
Hmm..
Just used soapy water & GE silicone 1 - not the starch method.
It's gooo-ey, gooey, then sets within 30 seconds
The "seal" is still out-gassing acetic acid ..weeks later.
Hmm..