Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

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Corby Dawson
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Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Hi,
I’m in a bit of a quandary!
I’m doing some work on a Hydrogen supply.
I have a Swagelok fitting I am trying to make a connection to and can’t figure out the correct fitting.
The male connection I am wanting to connect to has an O.D. of .618” and 20 TPI.
That seems to indicate a 5/8” X 20 TPI fitting.
I tried to equate it to a Metric size (16mm X 1.2mm pitch) but the pitch does not match any metric ones.
The only Swagelok I can find that matches is the ultratorr series but that series uses an o-ring and also knurled so that it can be finger tightened.
The one I need is for a 3/8 tube and is a normal metal to metal Swagelok that needs to be wrenched..
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Corby
John Futter
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by John Futter »

Corby
post some pics of the offending item
Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Here are some PIX

My need is to make an adaptor that will allow me to connect where the copper tube and nut are currently attached to the regulator.

The loose fitting shown is the correct size but I need the nut and ferrules to match.

Cheers,

Corby
DSCN2754.JPG
DSCN2757.JPG
DSCN2755.JPG
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

Are you sure that's a Swagelok and not just an ordinary plumbing compression fitting, as used for water, natural gas, etc.?
comp3.PNG
comp3.PNG (134.15 KiB) Viewed 9045 times
In my experience, they are not standardized as well as we'd like. I have a couple of brass 1/4" tube compression fittings whose nuts have different threading. In the series sold by McMaster-Carr, nominal 7/16-OD-tube fittings have 5/8"-24 threads. That's consistent with this table from lasco.net:
comp4.PNG
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Rich,

The Stainless nut connecting the copper tube in the picture to the regulator is marked Swagelok and the male Swagelok fitting in the other pictures has been used to connect to this nut in the past to refill the Hydrogen bottle. I don't believe a standard compression fitting would be able to seal the 400+PSI. I have laid a 1/4X20 bolt into the threads of the male fitting pictured and it definitely looks to be 20TPI. If I can't get the adaptor made up to install the Hydrostik I'll get some PIX of the present tube connection internals when I refill the Hydrogen bottle. I did not want to have to take the system down twice to switch over to the Hydrostik!
Corby
Jim Stead
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Jim Stead »

If you are trying to connect that adapter shown in your first two pictures to the regulator in the last picture, all you need is a short piece of tubing between the two swagelok connectors. Ferrules can be found on ebay.
Another option is to get rid of the swagelok completely. Remove the swagelok adapter from your Tee, and remove the one on the regulator, then directly connect your Tee to the regulator with standard NPT threaded pipe.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

Corby, please let us know what you find that fits. Following your footsteps, an hour of Internet searching here found nothing that uses 5/8"-20 threads. Plenty of -18 and some -24 (tpi), for example in table above. This is weird!
Along the way, I learned that brake systems, put together with flare fittings, handle four-digit pressures routinely. You got me interested in pressurizing some hardware-store compression fitting connections with a grease gun, to see what happens.

p.s. Please tell us about your hydrostik application. Are the cartridge connections a Brunton proprietary thing? Sort of a 10-32 thread with a pushbutton valve in the center? Do you know whether their hydrogen loading vs pressure curves are substantially different for deuterium?
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Jim,

Here is what I'm trying to do.
Currently the compressed gas bottle containing the Hydrogen is connected as shown in the picture.
I want to Take a Hydrostik that connects to its 1/8" tube adaptor and connect it to an adaptor that will thread onto the spot where the Hydrogen bottle has been removed.
I want to retain the ability to switch back to the bottle if needed so want to stay with the original Swagelok connection.
cyl to hyd.png
Rich, the Hydrostik fitting sounds like what you describe. I'm not sure if it is proprietary.
They do sell a screw on head that comes out as a stainless 1/8" tube and that's what I'm using.
Don't know if it loads Deuterium in a similar manner. I remember a post a while back where someone was going to try charging with Deuterium but don't know if they ever did it.
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rex Allers »

Corby,

I don't have anything to offer on the Swagelok questions, but I was involved in the discussion some months back, after your idea of using the Hydrostiks. I did some work on my own set-up but got distracted (again) before I got very far along.

I bought one Hydrostik and a 4-pack of HydroCores (basically the same thing). I also bought a Hydrofill electrolysis unit to charge them, but I haven't used it yet. My first goal was to make some plumbing to experiment with using the hydrogen out of the Hydrostik.

By guesswork I figured that the end connector of the hydrostick has an internal valve that is held sealed by the pressure inside (maybe some kind of spring too?). Something needs to press down through the exit port of the Hydrostik to open the valve and let the hydrogen exit.

So you say you bought one of the adapters that are made to screw on a Hydrostik? I looked at them on the web but they seemed awfully pricey for something that seemed so simple. So question for you, does the adapter you bought have some kind of fixed pin in the center to press into the hydrostik as the adapter is screwed on?

I made my own adapter to screw onto the Hydrostik that has a knob of my own design that pushes a pin into the Hydrostick to open its valve. It seems to work and gas comes out, but I haven't put it into any connected regulator or gauge and tested to see if it is sealed properly.

I looked at the plumbing in the Hydrofill generator. A lot of it was very thin stainless tubing ( 0.060" OD). That seemed good to me as the very small ID should waste very little gas (D2 eventually, I hope). I bought some on eBay. I also have a fair amount of plastic tubing that's 1/8" OD that I think I will use too. My thought is to make some of the connections with standard plumbing 1/8" NPT compression fittings.

I was planning to share more when I had gotten farther along and more comfortable my ideas are OK. I have a hand drawing of the connection-end of the Hydrostik cartridges with dimensions, that I used for making my adapter. I could share that if any interest.

The eventual process of getting H2 out of the cartridges and replacing with D2 is one of the big things that will need to be worked out. If either of us gets further along, that should probably be another thread or a raising of the original one.
Rex Allers
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Looks like a standard 3/8" swagelok fitting to me. You can order replacement nuts and ferrules online.

I believe all swagelok fittings use the same thread pitch no matter what the size, from 1/16" on up. The means that when you go to compress them you turn the wrench to the same angle after finger tight on all sizes of fittings to get the same crimp. I believe that is 1-1/4 turns.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/1421645836 ... noapp=true
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

Cutting to the chase, I bet Corby's fittings are for tube OD of 10 mm. Don't know if they could have been (ab)used with 3/8" copper tubing. Metric tube diameters are no exception to what Jerry taught us, about all sizes using same thread pitch.

Today I measured some fittings that say Parker and Swagelok, on 3/8" stainless steel tubes.
swage_3_8.PNG
Threads are nominal 9/16"-20. Nut is 11/16" hex. Matches the literature. Next size up is for 1/2" OD tube. Nut is 7/8" hex with 3/4"-20 threads.

So Corby's specimens continue to look like oddballs. No, wait a minute.
What if their tube size is 10mm instead of 3/8"? That would have 5/8-20 thread and 18 mm hex nut. Nut and body would have a "metric identification" shoulder. One ref: pages 8 and 9 of this catalog: https://www.hydradynellc.com/images/doc ... ec2012.pdf
alok_metric.PNG
Corby and Rex, can I please join the Hydrostik experimenter's club? I got a couple of 'stiks at Fry's in Palo Alto for $9.95 each. Been thinking about how to compress hydrogen that's generated with chemicals in bottles.
Must agree that the adapters are pretty expensive for what you get. http://www.fuelcellstore.com/hydrostik-fitting You can also get compact, fixed low-pressure regulators that go directly on a Hydrostik.

In case you missed it, here are illustrated instructions from instrument maker Inficon, about how to use & refill Hydrostiks instead of using high pressure hydrogen cylinders directly. The fill cycle maintains H2 pressure at 250 psig for 1 hour. http://products.inficon.com/GetAttachme ... stallation
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Rich,

I think you found it!

The dimensions for the 10mm tube wound be .393" OD vice .375" for the 3/8 tube.

The straight thread noted would match the 5/8 20 I measured!

I put a micrometer on the existing tube and got .394" OD.

Both nuts that I have also have the metric identification shoulder shown!

Thanks for the help!

Now to find some metric tube and nuts with ferrules.

Cheers,

Corby
Rex Allers
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rex Allers »

Corby,

In my earlier post I asked you a question. Hoping you can answer. You said you bought one of the fittings from Hydrostik output to 1/8 tube. I've seen pictures of them but nothing that gave a look what's inside where it screws onto the Hydrostik. Here's my earlier question...

"So question for you, does the adapter you bought have some kind of fixed pin in the center to press into the hydrostik as the adapter is screwed on?"

From my hacking of the Hydrostik function, it seems to me something needs to poke into the opening of the Hydrostik to open its internal valve and let the H or D gas out. (A little like a car tire valve.) I'm curious to learn what the proper sold adapters are like.

For Rich... More folks involved is better. You prodded me to do more from where I left off. Waiting for some JB-Weld to cure right now, so I can take the next step on my path.

Interesting that you found Hydrostiks at Frys. I'm curious what section they were in?

I think there's some potential goodness for fusors here. I'm a bit nervous that their technology doesn't seem to be finding a market. A year ago I found more on the webs than now. The company Horizon Fuel Cell seems to be who designed and produced this stuff. Rich mentioned Brunton. I'm guessing they licensed it from Horizon. Brunton's focus seemed to be portable, lightweight power for campers. They seemed to offer the same stuff as Horizon but rebranded as Brunton. I don't think that campers have been excited about these products that make electricity from hydrogen cartridges. Just as we are looking into using these technologies as a possible way to share or electrolyse handy anounts of D2, I'm worried that even if it is a good method, the companies making the 'stiks & etc. may be failing.

Oh, well. Got my stuff and continuing down this path.

I'll add more (probably in a different thread) when I have more to share.
Rex Allers
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

My very long reply just got deleted by a mistaken mouse click when I was about to post it. My loss, readers' gain. :-)

Much shorter now.
Glad to hear that 10mm was a good answer for Corby.
The hydrogen cores do belong under a different thread title. But for the moment...

I think Rex called it right. Consumer product missed the boat. Rechargeable lithium-ion battery packs might have erased any weight advantage expected by Horizon and Brunton marketing people. "One core can replace 15 AA batteries". At Brunton.com today, the cores are on sale for $8 and the reactors for $68 -- but both "presently unavailable online". Those products, and probably the Hydrolyzer, are easy to find in other online stores.

The cores I got last summer were in the battery aisle at Frys. Today I was in the area, stopped in & found no hydrogen stuff there, not even empty hooks. Computer at help desk said the store was no longer stocking the cores, but had three left at $7 each. Another assistant and I found three at the bottom of a half-full cart of merchandise. All in mangled, customer-returned, taped-shut boxes -- a familiar sight at Frys. Don't know where they've been, or whether they are still full, but I took 'em all.

Computer said there were cores in stock at other regional Fryses: Sunnyvale, Campbell, San Jose, and Fremont at least. Campbell store allegedly still had one Reactor, on clearance for $69.
brunton-hydrogen-reactor-portable-fuel-cell-9.jpg
brunton-hydrogen-reactor-portable-fuel-cell-9.jpg (14.84 KiB) Viewed 8117 times
On my way to Campbell I stopped at REI. Helpers there remembered the reactors having been on shelves at REI more than a year ago, but not recently. At Campbell Frys I found one reactor (the yellow version, as luck would have it), in a box almost mangled beyond recognition. But two fresh-looking cores were in the package where they belong. Salesman, unprompted, gave me an extra discount; I took the reactor home for $64.

Now let's hit the Post button, and talk later about things to do with Hydrogen Reactors and Cores.
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Found a 1/8 tube to 10MM tube adaptor and ordered it along with a chunk of 10mm tubing and a couple 10MM nuts with ferrules.
Once I get it assembled I'll post a PIX!

Cheers,

Corby
Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

OK,

I've got all the fittings but the 10mm OD tube I found is WAY to thin.
I need 2mm thick preferable or 1mm in a pinch.
Can't find any in the US, (lots on ebay from China but I want to buy here!) that will let me buy less than $100.00 worth!
All I need is two 4" and two 3" pieces.
Anybody have such that they are willing to sell me?

Thanks,

Corby
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

Would this serve?
mcm.JPG
The temper is hard for straight product and soft for coil product. Copper is not hard (pun intended) to anneal with a torch.

They have 1/2 meter lengths of 316 stainless steel tubing, with 1.5 mm wall, for about the same money. Probably less money when shipping cost is added. I was happy with my McMaster order last year, which coincidentally included straight tubes. Glass capillaries, L 12", OD 5 mm, ID 0.5 or 0.6 mm.
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Rich,

McMaster Carr has the type for compression fittings, 2MM thick at $76.00 + shipping for .5 Meter,

The 1.5mm is for welding connections.

Hoping to find it more affordable but if I have to I know where it is now!

Cheers,

Corby
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rich Feldman »

Corby,
It's news to this non-guru, if Swagelok fittings require 2 mm thickness and SS tubes.
I bet the 10 mm copper tube in your picture (far up in this thread) isn't much over 1 mm thick.
Same goes for the 3/8" SS tube in my picture, but I will check tonight.

For metal tubing that's too thin, how about an internal metal reinforcing sleeve? As frequently used with common compression fittings on plastic tubing. With Swageloks that would be driving off-road, but aren't you only dealing with _regulated_ pressures? I have a little benchtop lathe & could turn some bushings for you.

[edit]This catalog from Swagelok http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webca ... 01-107.pdf lists tubes and associated fittings in the diameter range of interest. Choices include SS, steel, and copper, with wall thickness down to or below 0.035" and 1.0 mm.
swt.JPG
How about getting straight 3/8" OD tubing at the hardware store, and bring OD up to 10 mm with an external sleeve that's soldered/brazed/epoxied in place, or a few wraps of copper foil tape. Could it fail any worse than by leaking, which you can check with soapy water?
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Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Well I ordered the short piece from McMaster Carr!
Wanted to make sure it's correct if I'm at 400+PSI with Hydrogen for years at a time!
Should be able to finish up next week!

Cheers,

Corby
Rex Allers
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Rex Allers »

Just a quick FYI on pressures with these small H2 cartridges... In testing my home-made valve this last week I made some basic measurements. I connected my adapter / valve pretty directly to a dial pressure gauge that goes up to 600 psi. One hydrocore (the Brunton version) that I had been using and vented a few times for a few seconds, only read about 40 psi. I pulled out two more from the box of four, I don't think I ever connected them to anything, and they read about 240 and 280 psi. These had date codes on the bottom of 2013. I also had one Hydrostik (Horizon) and it measured zero. I guess in my experiments, early this year, I must have left it open for a while. I hope its internal valve is still good.

So this is just a note to say I don't know if you will see over 300 psi except in charging.
Rex Allers
Corby Dawson
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Re: Any Swagelok Gurus out there?

Post by Corby Dawson »

Rex,

We should probably spin this off into a Hydrostik/Hydrocore post.
The Hydrostik is shipped empty when you buy a new one.
You mentioned a Brunton 4 pack.
Are the Brunton's shipped full when bought new?
I can't find a definitive answer at the various places that sell them.
Also can you refill a Brunton with a compessed gas cylinder like you can the Hydrostik?

Cheers,

Corby
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