Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

For Short Term Learning Discussions ONLY. This area is for CURSORY questions and connecting with other users ONLY. ALL technical contributions need to be made in the appropriate forums and NOT HERE. All posts are temporary and will be deleted within weeks or months. You should have already search the extensive FAQs in each of the forums before posting here as your question may already be answered.
Joshua Guertler
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm
Real name: Joshua Guertler

Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Joshua Guertler » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:15 pm

Greetings,

After a series of unfortunate events involving my previous power supply, I have been considering using an electrostatic precipitator power supply similar to the one used by Finn Hammer in 2017 ("Test of Chinese Precipitator Supply," https://bit.ly/2OLH2M9) as a means of powering my "star-mode" fusor.

The power supply - which may be seen here as the CX-400B (https://ebay.to/2KxsmwP) - is claimed to be able to supply a maximum of -40 kV DC (continuously) at 8-10 mA. Fortunately, this power supply contains a Pot to help adjust the voltage from -5 to -40 kV and has built in surge protection which - coupled with a HV diode - should protect the supply from current spikes. Tests with a much cheaper -30 kV, ~6.7 mA version of this product seemed to yield very good results in terms of the power supply's ability produce a negative voltage and function for extended periods of time and over load arcing distances (max. tested was 6 cm) without breaking.

With this new -40 kV DC power supply, I was curious if the fusor community believes that it could be sufficient to produce detectable fusion at its maximum output. The fusor that I am testing it in has a 6" OD spherical steel chamber and a vacuum capable of reaching and sustaining a minimum pressure of 1 mTorr before adding deuterium. Also, I will be using a Ludlum 12-4 He-3 neutron counter to pick up neutron counts from the thermal range up to 12 MeV (truly accurate readings occupy the range from 0.025 eV to 7 MeV), you can see more on the detector here: https://bit.ly/2nf95Hh. Thank you.

Sincerely, Joshua Guertler

User avatar
Richard Hull
Site Admin
Posts: 10842
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:44 pm
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:13 pm

If you can reach a full 40kv under the gas load at a few ma (6-10ma), yes you will detect neutrons.

Easy to say....Hard to do.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Joshua Guertler
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm
Real name: Joshua Guertler

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Joshua Guertler » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:31 pm

Greetings Mr. Hull,

What are your estimates for the total isotropic neutron output that I would be looking at for this sized fusor with the given voltage input? Would I be able to generate significantly more using a T-shaped fusion chamber rather than a spherical one? Thank you.

Sincerely, Joshua Guertler

Jake Wells
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:29 am
Real name: Jake Wells

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Jake Wells » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:20 pm

Joshua,

You have not read the FAQ's. How could Richard know what neutron output you will achieve with just 40kV. What is the pressure? What is the current? Its like asking how fast a car will go depending on the tire pressure. The neutron output will depend on the voltage, current, gas pressure, and the operators technique.
“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”
― Nikola Tesla

Joshua Guertler
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm
Real name: Joshua Guertler

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Joshua Guertler » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:59 pm

Greetings Mr. Wells,

All of that information was included in my original post and in the included links. The amount of deuterium can be assumed to be operating in the ideal (basically the maximum amount to perform an ideal quantity of fusion, as this is a minor unimportant detail like technique). The point was not the specify on petty details like my operating deuterium input but rather to see if my current power supply that produces
-40 kV DC (continuously) at 8-10 mA.
and the size of the chamber will fit the bill for successful fusion. Any of your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Sincerely, Joshua Guertler

User avatar
Richard Hull
Site Admin
Posts: 10842
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:44 pm
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:28 pm

Your power supply is not known to produce 40kv at up to 8 ma under a fusor gas load! Please do not assume it is. It is claimed to supply this. The fusor is a dynamically variable load. Only operation will tell the tale.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Joshua Guertler
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm
Real name: Joshua Guertler

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Joshua Guertler » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:34 pm

Greetings Mr. Hull,

I tried to clarify that in my first post on the thread, sorry for any confusion on that point from the last post. While you and I both know that any voltage or current output is entirely definite, What would your answer to the two questions asked on my second post on this topic be? Thank you.

Sincerely, Joshua Guertler

User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 2:46 pm
Real name: Dennis P Brown
Location: Glen Arm, MD

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Dennis P Brown » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:46 pm

To answer your questions of whether you will get 10 ma from that power supply at 40 kV and whether you get detectable, much less a specific range of neutrons, is not something anyone here can say - simply do the experiment; measure the voltage and current under steady state conditions in your fusor at about 5 microns with dry and pure deuterium gas. If you get close to those values, I'd think you'd detect neutrons - if your detector is working properly (whether that is working or not isn't easy to determine without a neutron source; if you have one, great. If not and you are depending on the fusor, and well, that is what you use.) But frankly, I doubt that supply will deliver more than a few milli-amps at its rated 40 kV and likely drop out (but I hope not!) - the proof will be in doing the experiment and show the results - that will be very useful for everyone.

Now, I ran my fusor 30 - 32 kV at 20- 30 ma at 5 - 7 microns and got a reading of 40 - 80 thousand neutrons per minute. That was calculated counts from my recorded counts of 300 - 1000 neutrons/minute (not one to one since there is averaging) - I believe I did better but not really too concerned with calibration and I had a detector failure later. I may revisit this question this coming fall. Do understand that estimates of neutron yields are difficult and depend on distance, detector cross section and efficiency, modulator size and thickness and detector noise besides other issues that are fusor related.

Again, do the experiment with that power supply. A lot of people are interested in that type of supply - even if you don't get detectable neutrons, determining the performance of that supply under real fusor conditions is useful.

Joshua Guertler
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm
Real name: Joshua Guertler

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Joshua Guertler » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:10 am

Greetings Mr. Brown,

I am planning to use this sort of fusion reactor with this current and voltage for a few experiments in the future. One part of these experiments will involve taking a variety of precise neutron counts while my fusor has a pressure of 1-30 mTorr (this accounts for primarily deuterium). Since there is some question in the air on whether or not the source can actually put out the said current and voltage required for fusion, should I be using a t-shaped chamber instead of a 6" sphere during fusor operation? How much more effective would this sort of chamber be? Thank you.

Sincerely, Joshua Guertler

User avatar
Richard Hull
Site Admin
Posts: 10842
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:44 pm
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Use of a Precipatator Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:47 am

Lots of questions with no real way to estimate neutron numbers based on an iffy supply, unknown specific pressure, but most important operator skill which is not a scientific case, but one of pure artifice particular to the individual operator's ability to control the system via well done feedback of useful information from quality instrumentation to arrive and remain at the system's "sweet spot".

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Post Reply