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Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:37 am
by Andrew Seltzman
Beam expander assembly to reduce beam to size of optical detector
SAM_3182a.jpg
SAM_3185a.jpg
Test setup, soldering iron as heat source collimated through germanium lens
SAM_3187a.jpg
Shadow viewed on detector
MPEG0003-shadow.jpg

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:16 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
Direct imaging of expanded 10.6um beam from CO2 laser with thermal imager.

Synrad H48-1 with a 9x beam expander that has an internal adjustable iris to prevent reflection of the over expanded beam off the internal walls of the lens tube that cause a halo around the primary beam. Imaged with a thermal eye 2500AS

Before iris was added
MPEG0000-iris-open.jpg
After iris was added
MPEG0000-iris-filter.jpg
Video of adjusting iris
http://youtu.be/5j9_Yv9_eOM

Germanium rear coupler mirror 99.5% reflective, 0.5% transmissive, used as a 200X power attenuator
SAM_3177a.jpg
Coupler mounted on front of thermal imager beam expander
SAM_3191a.jpg
Laser setup
SAM_3194a.jpg
Laser modulation profile, 6% duty cycle, 1khz square wave, for further reduction in laser power
laser-moda.jpg
Bench test imaging of shadow in beam cast by soldering iron tip
SAM_3196a.jpg
Captured image of shadow
MPEG0003-shadow-direct.jpg
Video of moving metal tip through imaging beam
http://youtu.be/x_UALp30oOA

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:15 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
Imaging setup running with fusor with no plasma.

Laser setup with fusor
SAM_3198a.jpg
Beam aligned with core input window
SAM_3200a.jpg
Thermal imager viewing beam at output window
SAM_3201a.jpg
Shadow from central grid
MPEG0008-grid1.jpg
Shadow from central grid
MPEG0009-grid2.jpg
Videos of viewing the grid while repositioning the thermal imager
http://youtu.be/ZD-UnhpNOC4
http://youtu.be/N12B16Lp1gw

More pictures at
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/physics/ ... ometer.htm

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:13 am
by Andrew Seltzman
Preliminary testing of the laser system with plasma.


Setup of fusor with quad ion injector system, vacuum system, and CO2 laser probe
SAM_3247a.jpg
Quad injector power supply, 5kV, 3ma per channel for anode layer ion sources
SAM_3266a.jpg
Ion injector power cables
SAM_3267a.jpg
Starmode with ion injectors
SAM_3258a.jpg
Grid with coolant flow off
MPEG00~1-grid-hot.jpg
grid with coolant flow on
MPEG00~2-grid-cool.jpg
Laser density probe of plasma
MPEG00~3-laser-probe.jpg
Overall the laser probe observed nothing, which was expected at this point since the grid power supply is very under powered (5ma max) and can not bring the plasma density above cutoff at 10.6um. A capacitive pulsed system for the grid, and a interferometer setup for the laser are in progress.

The ion injectors work perfectly, however since they can flood the the entire chamber with plasma, they tend to over power the grid power supply when even one is running at maximum output. One interesting observation, by varying the ion injector power individually, the center of the star can be pushed around the inside of the center grid.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:21 am
by Richard Hull
Andrew, This is some great data collection effort on your part. I am sure most everyone follows this with great interest. As this progresses and when you feel you might be able to issue a final summary report of your work, please do so. Some of your data already given is most intriguing.

Richard Hull

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:53 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
Plasma at 5mTorr
SAM_3286ba.jpg
Videos of thermal imaging fusor interior, some at 320x240 resolution, turning on and off grid coolant flow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8suOQDY9668
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxMEJhGmrmA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUihlkrJeQw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfPozHL37A

Interferometer beam splitter mount
SAM_3298a.jpg
Grid viewed through interferometer beam splitter
SAM_3300a.jpg
Interferometer reference beam arm
SAM_3305a.jpg
Interferometer reference beam arm
SAM_3306a.jpg
Turning mirrors
SAM_3310a.jpg
All updates so far
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/physics/ ... ometer.htm

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:48 am
by Andrew Seltzman
Construction of the grid mounted ion collector to measure the distribution of ions hitting the grid surface based on temperature rise of each segment is complete.

Copper disk with one segment machined
SAM_3334a.jpg
Machining down center thickness to 0.2mm
SAM_3342a.jpg
Machining ion collector
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUyIb7z ... e=youtu.be

Ion collector segments
SAM_3348a.jpg
Ion collector mounted on grid
SAM_3361a.jpg
Ion collector mounted on grid
SAM_3362a.jpg
Ion collector mounted on grid, grid installed in reactor
SAM_3364a.jpg

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:56 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
Report on findings so far
seltzman_us-japan-2014.pdf
(2.58 MiB) Downloaded 812 times

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:39 pm
by Andrew Robinson
Impeccable work Andrew. I am following your efforts with great interest.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:34 pm
by Ben_Barnett
A 1 inch (25.4 mm) Zinc Selenide window costs ~$300 USD, and the thermal camera comes up around $500.

Is there a way to do thermal imaging of the fusor grid (to determine plasma/grid temperatures) for under $300 - $400?

Or maybe someone can point me in a different direction.
We are aiming to vary the grid geometry in the fusor, and take measurements to compare the effects of the different geometries. Aside from input voltage, current, and chamber pressure, if possible a measurement of the plasma temperature would be great if for a reasonable price.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:15 pm
by ian_krase
You can likely get away with a smaller window.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
Hi Ben,

Seek thermal makes a usb thermal camera for a little over $100
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Seek-Thermal-C ... :rk:2:pf:0

For the window look for ZnSe laser cutter lenses on ebay, you can get them pretty cheap. II-VI also makes 2" diameter lenses for laser cutters; these can easily be mounted in a rotatable 2.75" CF ring:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/II-VI-Infrared ... rk:43:pf:0

A measurement of the plasma temperature would require a langmuir probe of thomson scattering system.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:26 pm
by Ben_Barnett
That gives me some direction (and makes me grateful for Ebay once again).

With the ZnSe glass on the viewport, if I attach the thermal camera on the outside, I should be able to see the inner grid? I'm curious how the idea to use ZnSe glass came about. Is it reducing the luminosity of the light, or changing the wavelength?

Thanks for the help.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:19 pm
by Andrew Seltzman
The Zinc Selenide (ZnSe) lens will replace the glass viewport and seal to the conflat flange with a viton o-ring. ZnSe is transparent in the IR wavelengths, so it will let the thermal camera see into the fusor.

You can also use a germanium viewport like I am currently using on the latest upgrade:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10294&start=130

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:39 am
by Rich Feldman
Kind of late to this party.
It's my understanding that thermal-infrared cameras and exotic optical materials, like Andrew has been talking about, are for target temperatures in the sub-red-hot range. Like the narrow liquid-cooled tubes in Andrew's grid.

Ben, have you noticed that many fusioneers use grid wire made from refractory metals, like tungsten or molybdenum?
That's 'cause they have enough high voltage power that a stainless steel grid would melt. Implies operating temperatures so incandescent that you'd need a pretty dark filter to safely look at with your eyes. Luminous enough to easily get the brightness temperature with ordinary visible-light cameras and optical materials.

You could make a science-fairish optical pyrometer, by arranging for camera to simultaneously view the fusor grid and a reference piece of the same kind of wire. Little mirrors might be useful. Reference wire is heated with ordinary electric current to make its brightness, thus its temperature, match the incandescent grid. The rocket science in imaging thermometers is their ability to focus and detect radiant energy, at wavelengths where glass is opaque and silicon is transparent or insensitive.

Here's a factoid from incandescent lamp research 100 years ago -- maybe I learned it from a CRC handbook. A typical tungsten filament's luminance is a bit lower than blackbody at the same temperature, because the emissivity is less than 1.0. Its color temperature is higher than the actual temperature, because the emissivity is spectrally tilted in the blue direction. I bet if the incandescent wire were hollow, with a tiny hole offering a view to the interior, that spot in a closeup image would fairly represent the blackbody color and luminance.

Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:34 am
by PatrickRothschild
Great Information sharing .. I am very happy to read this article .. thanks for giving us go through info. Fantastic post. I appreciate this post. This will consist of an array of small copper segments mounted to the grid with a standoff of known thermal conductivity, the collector to grid temperature difference will them be proportional to the heat flux flowing through the standoff.

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:11 pm
by John Futter
Patrick
it is even easier than you make out all you have to know is the current flowing into the grid times the accel voltage = heat input
being in vacuum we are neglecting the neutron production as it is an impossibly small fraction of the power in and we are ignoring the conduction losses through the grid stalk (these are usually stainless a bad heat conductor

q = σ T4 A
q= power input
σ = 5.6703 10-8 Stefan Boltzmans constant
A=radiative area in sq meters
T4 = temp in kelvins raised to the forth power

edit to makeup for room temp T4 is modified to (T1^4 - t2^4) t1 = grid t2 = room temp

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:04 pm
by Rich Feldman
I think you didn't factor in the emissivity of grid metal, which isn't even close to blackbody.
e.g. if e=0.4, absolute T needs to be about 25% higher to match the radiant power density of blackbody.
Let's not talk about what fraction of HV power is deposited on the current-sourcing surfaces, as opposed to the current-sinking inner grid.

Been meaning to follow up on my previous speculation about measuring the spectral emissivity of tungsten.
Discovered a marvelous and authoritative paper by Larrabee, at MIT in 1957.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/06fa/f ... 9ec6c7.pdf

His monochromator and PMT were focused at a spot on a long straight tube of pure tungsten, with 0.125" OD and 0.001" wall thickness. Whose fabrication makes a good story by itself.
Blackbody reference, at nearly the same temperature, is a 0.013" round hole offering a view to the interior.
A detail I didn't think of is a zero-luminance reference, so scattered light reaching the detector can be subtracted out.
That's another 13 mil hole, that goes through both front and back sides of the luminous cylinder. The glass vacuum enclosure and filament placement are carefully designed to minimize reflected light in the all-the-way-through view.
emis.JPG

Re: Thermal imaging of fusor grid / plasma

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 pm
by John Futter
Twas only the grid current I was concerned with as it is what heats the grid minus what is lost due to secondary electron emission no i did not factor in Emisivity of Tungsten now we can 0.471 ahead as a constant. Just need a handle of secondaries or suppress them to get an accurate count and you will get an arm wavey answer that is closer than an educated guess