Interesting ideas Dave, especially the cyclotron style one, that's pretty creative thinking. Do you think there's any feasable way to use a coil pickup where the charge carriers would induce a field in the coil?
I also think that if there's ever a good pulse scheme then the on / off power production may be beneficial for direct electrical conversion because it may be able to be harnessed in a harmonic sort of way. One example, and I imagine I'm setting myself up for a lot of critisism here because this is really not well thought out; If you had a pulsed system that sent out showers of neutrons in pulses, maybe it would be possible to use a moderator to create an alternating current. Maybe compressed hydrogen with a charge put on it surrounding the neutron source in an elongated donut cylinder type of shape. When a shower of neutrons comes flying out theres a proton recoil towards the outer radius of the hydrogen container, if there's a pickup grid on both the inner and outer radius of the container, a voltage differential may be created (?)
Direct Electrical Power Production
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Todd Massure
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Direct Electrical Power Production
Thanks Dave,
What's the theoretical efficiency of each of these processes?
Adam
What's the theoretical efficiency of each of these processes?
Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: Direct Electrical Power Production
The first and easiest of Dave's ideas is the one touted in the literature. This scheme, if implimented well with a serious flux of alphas or any charged particle, could be 100% efficient at recovery, but there are always step down and conversion losses. Given a total power out of charged particles in a usable beam, This would beat any boling water reactor due to massive heat losses and other steam conversion losses normally accepted as a given in such systems.
Getting away from boiling water is a great idea.
Unfortunately, radiation is capricious and at 4-6mev, alphas pretty much do as they please. Steering them and herding them not only costs energy, but, in the process, dissapates some of their energy. In a spherical system, NO STEERING OR FOCUSING IS NEEDED.
It is key to fight for the retention of a spherical system with fusion at the center if the direct conversion route is sought after.
Like Dave says................give us more than nanowatts of charged particles and then we can get serious about direct conversion, which is a mere engineering issue which will be conquered relatively easily as all such well understood engineering issues are, ultimately.
This discussion is like designing a car and fawning on the seating or steering or how to make a transmisson or tires, when no one has any idea of how to make an engine that has more than .000001 horsepower. A bit of cart before the horse.
Compared to getting power fusion, direct conversion of charged particles is a mere trifle.
Richard Hull
Getting away from boiling water is a great idea.
Unfortunately, radiation is capricious and at 4-6mev, alphas pretty much do as they please. Steering them and herding them not only costs energy, but, in the process, dissapates some of their energy. In a spherical system, NO STEERING OR FOCUSING IS NEEDED.
It is key to fight for the retention of a spherical system with fusion at the center if the direct conversion route is sought after.
Like Dave says................give us more than nanowatts of charged particles and then we can get serious about direct conversion, which is a mere engineering issue which will be conquered relatively easily as all such well understood engineering issues are, ultimately.
This discussion is like designing a car and fawning on the seating or steering or how to make a transmisson or tires, when no one has any idea of how to make an engine that has more than .000001 horsepower. A bit of cart before the horse.
Compared to getting power fusion, direct conversion of charged particles is a mere trifle.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Direct Electrical Power Production
Months ago I posted a proposal for a direct conversion system here:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7017#p48889
Unfortunately few seemed to take it seriously. It is a tabletop system. in fact it would probably be difficult to scale up to multi MW plant size. It might even be suitable for an automobile power source. The first computers filled rooms - now they are nearly microscopic. Give this idea an open minded chance.
Phil
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7017#p48889
Unfortunately few seemed to take it seriously. It is a tabletop system. in fact it would probably be difficult to scale up to multi MW plant size. It might even be suitable for an automobile power source. The first computers filled rooms - now they are nearly microscopic. Give this idea an open minded chance.
Phil
Re: Direct Electrical Power Production
Todd -
Yes you could extract energy with a coil. A loaded current transformer comes mind. I can't do the estimate of efficiency for any of these processes in my head, but as Richard points out, in principle the reverse LINEAC approach would be close to 100%. That's fairly simple to understand since the process of adding energy via an accelerating field is as efficient as extracting energy via a decelerating field. Electrostatic fields are conservative, which means that apart from incidental losses, in the external circuits, the energy extracting is more or less perfectly efficient. Actually even the extracting has losses, since energy is absorbed or radiated whenever a charged particle is accelerated or decelerated.
In the cyclotron/synchrotron AC decellerators, there will be substantially larger losses in the form of skin effect and other EM losses, plus magnet energy (PM's would eliminate most of that)., etc.
Phil - the reversed field energy extraction method has been in view for a long time now....but there's always room for a new wrinkle . If only we had some fusion driven energy to extract!
Dave Cooper
Dave Cooper
Yes you could extract energy with a coil. A loaded current transformer comes mind. I can't do the estimate of efficiency for any of these processes in my head, but as Richard points out, in principle the reverse LINEAC approach would be close to 100%. That's fairly simple to understand since the process of adding energy via an accelerating field is as efficient as extracting energy via a decelerating field. Electrostatic fields are conservative, which means that apart from incidental losses, in the external circuits, the energy extracting is more or less perfectly efficient. Actually even the extracting has losses, since energy is absorbed or radiated whenever a charged particle is accelerated or decelerated.
In the cyclotron/synchrotron AC decellerators, there will be substantially larger losses in the form of skin effect and other EM losses, plus magnet energy (PM's would eliminate most of that)., etc.
Phil - the reversed field energy extraction method has been in view for a long time now....but there's always room for a new wrinkle . If only we had some fusion driven energy to extract!
Dave Cooper
Dave Cooper
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Re: Direct Electrical Power Production
Andy
As these charges spiral in the magnetic field they will give off EM radiation and if their time in the field is sufficiently long (as you seem to desire) then indeed that's where most of the energy will go.
Actual direct charge collection systems have been built and used for decades in space exploration and spy satellites.
Vic
As these charges spiral in the magnetic field they will give off EM radiation and if their time in the field is sufficiently long (as you seem to desire) then indeed that's where most of the energy will go.
Actual direct charge collection systems have been built and used for decades in space exploration and spy satellites.
Vic